Trackday Licences
Discussion
Just been reading more of Deadeye's rather sobering thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's got me thinking about ways Track days could be kept open for all while still controlling the quality of driving. I did my last trackday in my largely road-standard MX-5 with my fiance in the passenger seat. The thought that some arrogant and incompetent bar steward could have t-boned my car and what could have happened to her is rather sobering. Regardless of costs or legal implications, the thought that this could happen is what puts me off doing further track days, despite having done roughly half a dozen in the last four or five years.
I'm sure track day licenses aren't a new idea, but it would be interesting to have a discussion about their validity. The way I see it, you could obtain a trackday license through the ATDO at any circuit or venue, it would cost £15-20 and would consist of 3-5 laps next to an instructor to assess your ability and your attitude. The courses could be held during the lunch hour of normal trackdays when the circuit is empty.
Even if the majority were passed, it would at least be an opportunity for a trackdayer to have a minimum of tuition before heading out on circuit. At the moment, the most some receive is a distant pursuit of the lead car on a pace lap at the start of the day.
For those failing the attitude test, or showing extreme ignorance or incompetence, it could be a way of preventing or limiting their immediate access to a track day - it would most probably have stopped Deadeye's blue M135i assailant, and maybe the famous GTR knob too. Those failing could be asked to receive tuition before applying for another track day license.
I think this is a viable idea, and could be a good way of vetting people before hitting the circuit, and potentially other people!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's got me thinking about ways Track days could be kept open for all while still controlling the quality of driving. I did my last trackday in my largely road-standard MX-5 with my fiance in the passenger seat. The thought that some arrogant and incompetent bar steward could have t-boned my car and what could have happened to her is rather sobering. Regardless of costs or legal implications, the thought that this could happen is what puts me off doing further track days, despite having done roughly half a dozen in the last four or five years.
I'm sure track day licenses aren't a new idea, but it would be interesting to have a discussion about their validity. The way I see it, you could obtain a trackday license through the ATDO at any circuit or venue, it would cost £15-20 and would consist of 3-5 laps next to an instructor to assess your ability and your attitude. The courses could be held during the lunch hour of normal trackdays when the circuit is empty.
Even if the majority were passed, it would at least be an opportunity for a trackdayer to have a minimum of tuition before heading out on circuit. At the moment, the most some receive is a distant pursuit of the lead car on a pace lap at the start of the day.
For those failing the attitude test, or showing extreme ignorance or incompetence, it could be a way of preventing or limiting their immediate access to a track day - it would most probably have stopped Deadeye's blue M135i assailant, and maybe the famous GTR knob too. Those failing could be asked to receive tuition before applying for another track day license.
I think this is a viable idea, and could be a good way of vetting people before hitting the circuit, and potentially other people!
With the greatest of respect, anyone who's worried about it to that degree would be better giving up driving entirely. There are plenty of idiots out there on the roads.
That said it's not theoretically a bad idea but the overhead of enforcing it and all the aggro and that would result is probably a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
That said it's not theoretically a bad idea but the overhead of enforcing it and all the aggro and that would result is probably a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
I don't think it would be practical.
You cannot assess a persons quality of driving in the space of 15 minutes on a relatively empty track.
Likewise if you are driving with an instructor in a busy active session you are very much unlikely going to do anything stupid with them sat next to you.
And it wouldn't be £15 or £20. It would be £200.
Also it would introduce an air of superiority, making trackdays no longer "open to all" and only open to those who take it seriously enough to bother getting ARDs testing. Which lets face it none of us normal track dayers would bother to do as we feel we are competent enough already .
You cannot assess a persons quality of driving in the space of 15 minutes on a relatively empty track.
Likewise if you are driving with an instructor in a busy active session you are very much unlikely going to do anything stupid with them sat next to you.
And it wouldn't be £15 or £20. It would be £200.
Also it would introduce an air of superiority, making trackdays no longer "open to all" and only open to those who take it seriously enough to bother getting ARDs testing. Which lets face it none of us normal track dayers would bother to do as we feel we are competent enough already .
xjay1337 said:
I don't think it would be practical.
You cannot assess a persons quality of driving in the space of 15 minutes on a relatively empty track.
Likewise if you are driving with an instructor in a busy active session you are very much unlikely going to do anything stupid with them sat next to you.
And it wouldn't be £15 or £20. It would be £200.
Also it would introduce an air of superiority, making trackdays no longer "open to all" and only open to those who take it seriously enough to bother getting ARDs testing. Which lets face it none of us normal track dayers would bother to do as we feel we are competent enough already .
The M135i driver had no idea what line to take on that circuit, and he crashed on his second lap. I'm sure an instructor sat next to him would have quite quickly realised that he was incompetent and his attitude inappropriate.You cannot assess a persons quality of driving in the space of 15 minutes on a relatively empty track.
Likewise if you are driving with an instructor in a busy active session you are very much unlikely going to do anything stupid with them sat next to you.
And it wouldn't be £15 or £20. It would be £200.
Also it would introduce an air of superiority, making trackdays no longer "open to all" and only open to those who take it seriously enough to bother getting ARDs testing. Which lets face it none of us normal track dayers would bother to do as we feel we are competent enough already .
Why the hell would it cost £200? Tuition on a trackday usually only costs £25 or so.
People acting like the M135i incident is the first time an idiot has caused an accident at a trackday.
Yes, tuition is cheap on the trackday. Sometimes it's even included FOC.
But once you start saying "To come on our trackday you need a license" the cost will go up exponentially.
That also, as I said, I don't think you can judge a driver based on 15 minutes, properly, as to whether they are safe enough to go out in the "public domain".
Yes, tuition is cheap on the trackday. Sometimes it's even included FOC.
But once you start saying "To come on our trackday you need a license" the cost will go up exponentially.
That also, as I said, I don't think you can judge a driver based on 15 minutes, properly, as to whether they are safe enough to go out in the "public domain".
xjay1337 said:
People acting like the M135i incident is the first time an idiot has caused an accident at a trackday.
Yes, tuition is cheap on the trackday. Sometimes it's even included FOC.
But once you start saying "To come on our trackday you need a license" the cost will go up exponentially.
That also, as I said, I don't think you can judge a driver based on 15 minutes, properly, as to whether they are safe enough to go out in the "public domain".
No, of course it's not the first time an idiot has crashed at a track day. What is changing is the popularity of track days and people talking about legal action. If introducing licenses helps head off the threat of a legal precedent that makes track day insurance mandatory and the costs of track daying increase exponentially, then it has to be good thing.Yes, tuition is cheap on the trackday. Sometimes it's even included FOC.
But once you start saying "To come on our trackday you need a license" the cost will go up exponentially.
That also, as I said, I don't think you can judge a driver based on 15 minutes, properly, as to whether they are safe enough to go out in the "public domain".
Plus isn't it quite sensible that people have their driving assessed in some way before they try to drive their car at potentially very high speed on a track, especially as it's quite easy to obtain a car with 300bhp + these days?
Saying that you can't assess someone's driving in 15 minutes is just you pontificating.
No, me saying that you can't assess someone's driving is in response to you saying
I'm not disagreeing with the theory but I don't think the practical side of it is there yet. nor needed
You can talk about legal action all you like but you need to have your own trackday insurance - that is well documented and explained in trackday documentation and the disclaimers we have to sign.
That is and has always been the risks.
You said:
The way I see it, you could obtain a trackday license through the ATDO at any circuit or venue, it would cost £15-20 and would consist of 3-5 laps next to an instructor to assess your ability and your attitude. The courses could be held during the lunch hour of normal trackdays when the circuit is empty.
3 or 5 laps is what, 15 minutes?I'm not disagreeing with the theory but I don't think the practical side of it is there yet. nor needed
You can talk about legal action all you like but you need to have your own trackday insurance - that is well documented and explained in trackday documentation and the disclaimers we have to sign.
That is and has always been the risks.
xjay1337 said:
I'm advocating either taking insurance if you are that worried, or not whining about it if you aren't and going to enjoy the day
Insurance to cover pecuniary loss is one thing - however that doesn't help much if another driver who shouldn't have been on circuit causes a crash that results in personal injury.And I'm not whining. I love going on circuit. It'd just be nice to know the other people on the circuit have been vetted too, and aren't a liability that are about to ruin my day.
Given the M135i guy crashed on lap 2, retrospectively assessing driving standards isn't necessarily the best way to check the people out there, should be out there. Perhaps a proactive system should be in place instead?
I still don't get that you feel a driver can't be assessed as safe in a handful of laps. I remember doing a Mustang experience a couple of years ago (I'd done a couple of track days by then) and within half a lap the instructor asked "so, what do you normally drive on track?". Similarly, I remember passengering with a guy a while ago and it was obvious within a couple of corners that he was clueless: hands all over the place, wrong line, causing the car to understeer by panic braking at the apex... His attitude was fine, though - he was looking out for other cars. If I were assessing him, with a few words of advice and a suggestion that he books tuition at his first trackday, I'd have said he wouldn't have been a danger on track, he just had a lot to learn.
Again, that is the risk you should take.
I can't imagine you would have such a hideous accident on a road-based track day that you lose a leg for example.
"Motorsport can be dangerous. Participate at your own risk". Bit of whiplash, get over it.
And even as such, as I said, I'm sure you can get personal insurance cover for that type of activity if you were enough of a little girl.
There should not be the compensation culture that we seem to have. "What if you suffer a personal injury" implying who will pay for your pain and suffering.
You can be a good driver in terms of car control but awful in terms of observation or spatial awareness. Like in your example. So a very short session is pointless.
If you are that worried about crashing or being crashed into, as I said, take personal insurance out or don't go.
Either go ARDs requirement , which costs £600 + the application pack which is about £90 from the research I can find , which means that 80 people at a trackday drop to 20, and the track day goes from 150 quid to 600 quid, you'll have no risk or crashing as there will be no cars out on track!
I can't imagine you would have such a hideous accident on a road-based track day that you lose a leg for example.
"Motorsport can be dangerous. Participate at your own risk". Bit of whiplash, get over it.
And even as such, as I said, I'm sure you can get personal insurance cover for that type of activity if you were enough of a little girl.
There should not be the compensation culture that we seem to have. "What if you suffer a personal injury" implying who will pay for your pain and suffering.
You can be a good driver in terms of car control but awful in terms of observation or spatial awareness. Like in your example. So a very short session is pointless.
If you are that worried about crashing or being crashed into, as I said, take personal insurance out or don't go.
Either go ARDs requirement , which costs £600 + the application pack which is about £90 from the research I can find , which means that 80 people at a trackday drop to 20, and the track day goes from 150 quid to 600 quid, you'll have no risk or crashing as there will be no cars out on track!
Having witnessed some aweful track driving in the past I think that the licence could be a good idea, I see a lot of the same faces every time I'm out so if the TDO's got their heads together and sorted something between them it wouldn't take that long to work through the regulars and get some kind of licence sorted out so then people could be effectively banned for bad or dangerous driving. It wouldn't need to cost anything like £200, 3 laps with an instructor for £20 or something a plastic card and a name on a database. I did a full contact demolition derby a few years ago and even that needed a licence.
xjay1337 said:
Again, that is the risk you should take.
I can't imagine you would have such a hideous accident on a road-based track day that you lose a leg for example.
"Motorsport can be dangerous. Participate at your own risk". Bit of whiplash, get over it.
And even as such, as I said, I'm sure you can get personal insurance cover for that type of activity if you were enough of a little girl.
There should not be the compensation culture that we seem to have. "What if you suffer a personal injury" implying who will pay for your pain and suffering.
You can be a good driver in terms of car control but awful in terms of observation or spatial awareness. Like in your example. So a very short session is pointless.
If you are that worried about crashing or being crashed into, as I said, take personal insurance out or don't go.
Either go ARDs requirement , which costs £600 + the application pack which is about £90 from the research I can find , which means that 80 people at a trackday drop to 20, and the track day goes from 150 quid to 600 quid, you'll have no risk or crashing as there will be no cars out on track!
You don't own a blue M135i with frontal crash damage do you?I can't imagine you would have such a hideous accident on a road-based track day that you lose a leg for example.
"Motorsport can be dangerous. Participate at your own risk". Bit of whiplash, get over it.
And even as such, as I said, I'm sure you can get personal insurance cover for that type of activity if you were enough of a little girl.
There should not be the compensation culture that we seem to have. "What if you suffer a personal injury" implying who will pay for your pain and suffering.
You can be a good driver in terms of car control but awful in terms of observation or spatial awareness. Like in your example. So a very short session is pointless.
If you are that worried about crashing or being crashed into, as I said, take personal insurance out or don't go.
Either go ARDs requirement , which costs £600 + the application pack which is about £90 from the research I can find , which means that 80 people at a trackday drop to 20, and the track day goes from 150 quid to 600 quid, you'll have no risk or crashing as there will be no cars out on track!
I think the system that has been in force for years, with thousands of people doing trackdays every year with no issue shows the current system works just fine.
How one accident where a driver outdrove himself / outbraked himself on his 2nd lap in poor conditions and the E36 driver looking at taking legal action can cause quite so much re-examining of a perfectly acceptable system is a mystery to me.
There is nothing stopping you taking out your own insurance if you feel the risk is too high.
How one accident where a driver outdrove himself / outbraked himself on his 2nd lap in poor conditions and the E36 driver looking at taking legal action can cause quite so much re-examining of a perfectly acceptable system is a mystery to me.
There is nothing stopping you taking out your own insurance if you feel the risk is too high.
xjay1337 said:
Also it would introduce an air of superiority, making trackdays no longer "open to all" and only open to those who take it seriously enough to bother getting ARDs testing. Which lets face it none of us normal track dayers would bother to do as we feel we are competent enough already .
ARDS? Ha ha. It's so easy to pass it's a bit of a joke. I know people who have never driven a trackday or kart in their life and walked away with a pass easily. There are also some truly terrible racers who must have passed but brake all over the place and take the strangest lines. In theory a TD licence and Database isn't a terrible idea but I agree that the practicalities of running such a scheme with all the TDOs signing up etc would prove either impossible or result in a lot of expense being added to the cost of trackdays.
Despite all the current chatter on here about trackdays and risks it should be pointed (again!) that car to car contact is incredibly rare. Most of the time it's people running out of talent and having an accident on their own.
I'm still firmly in the camp of you know the risks. Accept them, get your own cover or don't attend. In 10 years of regular trackday attendance I have seen some shocking driving and a fair few barriers bent but I have never seen two cars come together.
I've read the whole M135i crash thread. In addition to that I'm aware of 3 other car to car contact accidents last year (MG & Lotus at Cadwell, Skoda & Ginetta at Rockingham and Clio & MX-5 at Cadwell). All four accidents were caused by drivers over going down the inside of another car on the entry to the corner.
I did about 4 trackdays last year and had a few occasions where I had to brake for longer and avoid turning in because someone was overtaking as I was about to release the brakes and turn in. I check my mirrors at least twice on every straight; at the start, and the end and sometimes in the middle depending on the length of the straight and let people past as soon as it's safe - I'm definitely not one of the mobile chicanes with a queue of cars behind waiting to get past!
The way things are - I think it's only a matter of time before a more serious incident occurs. In DeadEye's case the outcome if he'd had a passenger on board could've been a lot worse.
At the moment I believe that there are not enough consequences for drivers that don't follow the rules in the briefing. I think that something should be done so that there are more consequences - hopefully before a more serious incident occurs that could affect the future of trackdays as we know them.
I think the licence idea set out in the first post wouldn't work as not all cars have a passenger seat and I think it would be a step too far to exclude cars that only have 1 seat. There's also an extra risk for the passenger as they don't know about the driver's competence and the mechanical condition of the car.
A simpler idea could be for drivers to apply for a trackday licence to the ATDO (with a fee to cover the admin of it) but with no test. TDOs could then notify the ATDO of any misdemeanours. Drivers that reach a certain number of points per number of trackdays could then be temporarily banned from future trackdays for a while. Of course, there would have to be an appeals process for this (perhaps requiring video evidence). However, there are still potential issues like TDOs not wanting to upset customers by reporting their misdemeanours and how much the licence fee would need to be to cover the admin of it.
I did about 4 trackdays last year and had a few occasions where I had to brake for longer and avoid turning in because someone was overtaking as I was about to release the brakes and turn in. I check my mirrors at least twice on every straight; at the start, and the end and sometimes in the middle depending on the length of the straight and let people past as soon as it's safe - I'm definitely not one of the mobile chicanes with a queue of cars behind waiting to get past!
The way things are - I think it's only a matter of time before a more serious incident occurs. In DeadEye's case the outcome if he'd had a passenger on board could've been a lot worse.
At the moment I believe that there are not enough consequences for drivers that don't follow the rules in the briefing. I think that something should be done so that there are more consequences - hopefully before a more serious incident occurs that could affect the future of trackdays as we know them.
I think the licence idea set out in the first post wouldn't work as not all cars have a passenger seat and I think it would be a step too far to exclude cars that only have 1 seat. There's also an extra risk for the passenger as they don't know about the driver's competence and the mechanical condition of the car.
A simpler idea could be for drivers to apply for a trackday licence to the ATDO (with a fee to cover the admin of it) but with no test. TDOs could then notify the ATDO of any misdemeanours. Drivers that reach a certain number of points per number of trackdays could then be temporarily banned from future trackdays for a while. Of course, there would have to be an appeals process for this (perhaps requiring video evidence). However, there are still potential issues like TDOs not wanting to upset customers by reporting their misdemeanours and how much the licence fee would need to be to cover the admin of it.
Edited by petrolbloke on Tuesday 26th January 17:34
A licence will only change peoples mindset during the assessment/test. Licence or not, a d
head who can't resist the red mist and stay disciplined will always be a dicked who can't resist the red mist and stay disciplined.
We have to leave the enforcement of discipline to the TDOs, and they need to man up and be strict, no 2nd chances, no benefit of the doubt. Mess about and your banned for good!
head who can't resist the red mist and stay disciplined will always be a dicked who can't resist the red mist and stay disciplined.We have to leave the enforcement of discipline to the TDOs, and they need to man up and be strict, no 2nd chances, no benefit of the doubt. Mess about and your banned for good!
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