Best track car chassis?
Discussion
I am thinking about buying a car to start using on the occasional track day and slowly modifying moving to more and more track use and potentially proper racing. I have thought of a few decent options of slightly varying prices but I really want to get the best base for all the mods to work off. Here is what I have so far:
E36 328i - Very cheap to buy, lots of parts availability. Eventually power will become an issue and they are really getting on a bit. E46 chassis may be a better bet
E46 330i - Getting pretty damn cheap entry point to E46 chassis. Potentially by the time I have upgraded everything to M3 levels though I may have just been better off buying the M3
E46 M3 - Probably at their lowest point now and some rough interior ones can be found ready to strip. Decent power, good all round but higher purchase price (especially here in NZ)
Toyota GT86 - Slightly more to buy than the E46 and a fair bit less power. Much newer car though and will start still under warranty and cheaper parts plus good availability. Can supercharge to add grunt when needed. Won't feel as bad tearing this interior out!
BMW 135i Coupe - Turbo engine means easy to boost power, perhaps slightly lighter than an E46 when fully stripped. Potential to be complicated/expensive than the others.
Porsche Cayman - The very top end of original purchase price. As stock will probably run rings around the rest of them but when it comes to modifying the price will probably become prohibitive. Also gaining power would be tricky and I'd be worried about bore scoring etc on the early ones. Pretty much ruled out but thought I might throw it in.
I am not really keen on a convertible so that rules out MX5, Boxster etc. Also mainly after RWD which rules out some pretty good Honda options. Have a got the main ones covered? Which is your pick? I am probably leaning towards the E46 M3 or GT86. The M3 will probably be more expensive in the long run but have more power. I do already have a CSL road car so getting another M3 seems a bit silly which puts me off it a bit, but there's no way I'm putting a cage etc in the CSL!
E36 328i - Very cheap to buy, lots of parts availability. Eventually power will become an issue and they are really getting on a bit. E46 chassis may be a better bet
E46 330i - Getting pretty damn cheap entry point to E46 chassis. Potentially by the time I have upgraded everything to M3 levels though I may have just been better off buying the M3
E46 M3 - Probably at their lowest point now and some rough interior ones can be found ready to strip. Decent power, good all round but higher purchase price (especially here in NZ)
Toyota GT86 - Slightly more to buy than the E46 and a fair bit less power. Much newer car though and will start still under warranty and cheaper parts plus good availability. Can supercharge to add grunt when needed. Won't feel as bad tearing this interior out!
BMW 135i Coupe - Turbo engine means easy to boost power, perhaps slightly lighter than an E46 when fully stripped. Potential to be complicated/expensive than the others.
Porsche Cayman - The very top end of original purchase price. As stock will probably run rings around the rest of them but when it comes to modifying the price will probably become prohibitive. Also gaining power would be tricky and I'd be worried about bore scoring etc on the early ones. Pretty much ruled out but thought I might throw it in.
I am not really keen on a convertible so that rules out MX5, Boxster etc. Also mainly after RWD which rules out some pretty good Honda options. Have a got the main ones covered? Which is your pick? I am probably leaning towards the E46 M3 or GT86. The M3 will probably be more expensive in the long run but have more power. I do already have a CSL road car so getting another M3 seems a bit silly which puts me off it a bit, but there's no way I'm putting a cage etc in the CSL!
Ok to clarify here when I say best I mean best within a bunch of constraints (including money, because it is an object here). I don't think they really need listing because it is pretty obvious the kinds of vehicles I am looking at here, but if the rest of you are struggling let me know.
You've had an Elise, surely that kind of fits the bill better?
I dunno, asking for the best track car chassis and then rattling off a bunch of production saloons is a bit like saying "which'll make the best running shoes- steel toe capped safety boots, golfing shoes, fisherman's waders or 70s platforms?"
I dunno, asking for the best track car chassis and then rattling off a bunch of production saloons is a bit like saying "which'll make the best running shoes- steel toe capped safety boots, golfing shoes, fisherman's waders or 70s platforms?"
You can always get a lot more power out of the GT86 with a supercharger. If you are new(ish) to track driving then you could start with a standard GT86 and upgrade it as your driving skills improve.
The M3 is a great car but its biggest problem on the track is going to be weight, are you prepared to chuck everything out?
I'd rather have an elise or exige than the GT86 with or without the supercharger if its just for the track.
The M3 is a great car but its biggest problem on the track is going to be weight, are you prepared to chuck everything out?
I'd rather have an elise or exige than the GT86 with or without the supercharger if its just for the track.
Lotus or Mazda, with power upgrades as you see fit. keep it light, simple, cheaper and.... better! Budget?
Both can be made hard top too. Convertibles now require full face helmet, even with soft roof up, but you're ok with a hard top fitted.
Biggest problem some people have is image, and so go down the big, powerful road saloon route. BMWs can be stripped and made in to fine track cars, but the question was best chassis.
Both can be made hard top too. Convertibles now require full face helmet, even with soft roof up, but you're ok with a hard top fitted.
Biggest problem some people have is image, and so go down the big, powerful road saloon route. BMWs can be stripped and made in to fine track cars, but the question was best chassis.
CABC said:
Biggest problem some people have is image, and so go down the big, powerful road saloon route.
Absolutely.Lost count of the number of times people looked at my old VX220 and said "It's not even a real car, it's made of plastic" usually followed by "Why don't you buy a real mans car, like a Porsche or a BMW?!"
... which was frustrating, but funny when exiting a corner at speed and their fight or flight reflex involuntarily chose 'flight', causing their eyes to leak and their hands to shake. Aye... a real mans car? Haha.
Interesting responses, I will try to clarify in a couple of bullet points:
1. I prefer to avoid convertibles like MX5 for a couple of reasons. The main one is cabin size, by the time you squeeze a proper cage into them the space gets very tight and height is a big issue. The legality in NZ is that the highest bars must be a certain hight above the top of your helmet, which for most people means hard tops won't fit over it etc etc. Basically they aren't worth the hassle to me.
2. Elises are great and all but they have 3 big downsides for me. First and foremost is repair costs. Even a small contact with the wall will in most circumstances require a new front or rear clam. These are impossible to get in NZ so it means shipping something that size from the UK, which would double the cost on top. So by the time I have paid all up, if I have a small off I am looking at 1/3 of the price of the whole car without paint yet. They are simply non-feasible to repair in this country. There is also parts availability, and the mid-engined factor which alludes to my next point.
3. Someone briefly mentioned skill level. I am not Ayrton Senna and I don't think I am. I'm not going to go out and buy a full race car and think I am going to be the business straight away. I want to learn as I go, improving both myself and the car at the same time. I want to learn RWD, because that for me is the most fun. I've had mid engined cars and they are a different kettle of fish. There is no playfulness (for me anyway), there is amazing grip then you overcooked it, hold on for the ride. That is the same with a lot of dedicated race cars.
4. Someone mentioned what series. That is a good point. Here in NZ there are a variety of series that cater to a large variety of ex-road going cars. There is practically nothing suited to dedicated track cars (Lotus 7 reps, Ginettas, Elises etc) as they are simply too rare here. Almost all of our series below the top end are based around modified large production vehicles. Hence my bias towards them. All of the ones I listed could happily slot into a decent race series here.
5. As alluded to when discussing Elises, repair costs are a big factor for me. This track car will be a lot less powerful and slower than some road cars I have. However they will be a bunch more fun to drive around the track because I don't have to worry. The vast majority of track time in NZ is un-insurable and I simply cannot dive into a gap knowing that a tiny mistake will cost me tens of thousands of dollars. If I prang an E46 I can be down getting a new panel tomorrow, if I prang an Elise or something it's be out of commission for 4 months.
It seems I could have been a bit clearer here. I'm not looking for what car will make me the absolute fastest around the track. There are cars that will be much faster than these, and they will easily be massively held back by the driver. I want a car that will be enjoyable but has the potential to get better as I do. I don't want to win races, I want to have a good time.
1. I prefer to avoid convertibles like MX5 for a couple of reasons. The main one is cabin size, by the time you squeeze a proper cage into them the space gets very tight and height is a big issue. The legality in NZ is that the highest bars must be a certain hight above the top of your helmet, which for most people means hard tops won't fit over it etc etc. Basically they aren't worth the hassle to me.
2. Elises are great and all but they have 3 big downsides for me. First and foremost is repair costs. Even a small contact with the wall will in most circumstances require a new front or rear clam. These are impossible to get in NZ so it means shipping something that size from the UK, which would double the cost on top. So by the time I have paid all up, if I have a small off I am looking at 1/3 of the price of the whole car without paint yet. They are simply non-feasible to repair in this country. There is also parts availability, and the mid-engined factor which alludes to my next point.
3. Someone briefly mentioned skill level. I am not Ayrton Senna and I don't think I am. I'm not going to go out and buy a full race car and think I am going to be the business straight away. I want to learn as I go, improving both myself and the car at the same time. I want to learn RWD, because that for me is the most fun. I've had mid engined cars and they are a different kettle of fish. There is no playfulness (for me anyway), there is amazing grip then you overcooked it, hold on for the ride. That is the same with a lot of dedicated race cars.
4. Someone mentioned what series. That is a good point. Here in NZ there are a variety of series that cater to a large variety of ex-road going cars. There is practically nothing suited to dedicated track cars (Lotus 7 reps, Ginettas, Elises etc) as they are simply too rare here. Almost all of our series below the top end are based around modified large production vehicles. Hence my bias towards them. All of the ones I listed could happily slot into a decent race series here.
5. As alluded to when discussing Elises, repair costs are a big factor for me. This track car will be a lot less powerful and slower than some road cars I have. However they will be a bunch more fun to drive around the track because I don't have to worry. The vast majority of track time in NZ is un-insurable and I simply cannot dive into a gap knowing that a tiny mistake will cost me tens of thousands of dollars. If I prang an E46 I can be down getting a new panel tomorrow, if I prang an Elise or something it's be out of commission for 4 months.
It seems I could have been a bit clearer here. I'm not looking for what car will make me the absolute fastest around the track. There are cars that will be much faster than these, and they will easily be massively held back by the driver. I want a car that will be enjoyable but has the potential to get better as I do. I don't want to win races, I want to have a good time.
Motorsport_is_Expensive said:
CABC said:
Biggest problem some people have is image, and so go down the big, powerful road saloon route.
Absolutely.Lost count of the number of times people looked at my old VX220 and said "It's not even a real car, it's made of plastic" usually followed by "Why don't you buy a real mans car, like a Porsche or a BMW?!"
... which was frustrating, but funny when exiting a corner at speed and their fight or flight reflex involuntarily chose 'flight', causing their eyes to leak and their hands to shake. Aye... a real mans car? Haha.
This is my experience on most trackdays (other than Lotus on Track sessions), I love when the little plastic car completely smokes some big powerful cars on the smaller, twisty circuits
I wouldn't be as happy in a converted family car having driven the Elise and VX220 chassis, there isn't many things (modded MX5 maybe) that could beat these little cars on a budget.
Smiles per £ not much beats mx5, although as you up the performance a lot its not as cheap anymore, but a lot less that a really quick Elise.
Ref the bimmers, I'm a 36 fan, the 46 is a step of development forward, heavier yes but in race spec + 100kg ish over 36 in same mods m3 vs m3 that is, not really looked into say 36 328 vs 46 330, more difficult for 46 power increases tho.
A 36 328 can be great, easy 230bhp & sub 1100kg, more grunt is trickier to get but are claims of 260s, its a cheap engine if it blows, unlike an m3 lump.
A lot lot cheaper than the rest in your list, you can have a decent done race/track car sorted for a couple of £k, naturally with cheaper cage & suspension type budget, not talking £10k on Ohlins & a £5k race seat etc
A compact running decent mods 328 lump is a fun lively thing & can get it to sub 1000kg too.
135i I've never seen in full track/race spec, I would think pretty brisk, a road car on road rubber easily got the same times at Spa as a bunch of us in fair spec caged & sticky tyre track e36 M3s & we were all pretty competent, so a fair driver comparison, so a fully track modded one would be a lot lot brisker.
All are fairly numb vs Elise/mx5/220 etc tho.
Have you tried the Caterham route? A quick one is one heck of a lot of fun.
Ref the bimmers, I'm a 36 fan, the 46 is a step of development forward, heavier yes but in race spec + 100kg ish over 36 in same mods m3 vs m3 that is, not really looked into say 36 328 vs 46 330, more difficult for 46 power increases tho.
A 36 328 can be great, easy 230bhp & sub 1100kg, more grunt is trickier to get but are claims of 260s, its a cheap engine if it blows, unlike an m3 lump.
A lot lot cheaper than the rest in your list, you can have a decent done race/track car sorted for a couple of £k, naturally with cheaper cage & suspension type budget, not talking £10k on Ohlins & a £5k race seat etc
A compact running decent mods 328 lump is a fun lively thing & can get it to sub 1000kg too.
135i I've never seen in full track/race spec, I would think pretty brisk, a road car on road rubber easily got the same times at Spa as a bunch of us in fair spec caged & sticky tyre track e36 M3s & we were all pretty competent, so a fair driver comparison, so a fully track modded one would be a lot lot brisker.
All are fairly numb vs Elise/mx5/220 etc tho.
Have you tried the Caterham route? A quick one is one heck of a lot of fun.
what are NZ tracks like? are they big, power based circuits? I have no idea but i associate it with big V8s and big tracks.
In the UK we're lucky having a number of tracks where agility is key (Indy, Cadwell, Snetterton et al) hence some of the initial replies.
think the 86 might come back into play, isn't it mucher cheaper down under?
In the UK we're lucky having a number of tracks where agility is key (Indy, Cadwell, Snetterton et al) hence some of the initial replies.
think the 86 might come back into play, isn't it mucher cheaper down under?
I run a Cayman s gen 2 and a bmw 130i. The latter is my TD project car which is being slowly Modified. It's not the best suited car but I always like hatches / wagons and being a little,different. The Cayman outperforms the bmw in stock form by some margin. Camber is the biggest issue ina stock Cayman so suspension mods required immediately or you'll pay out in tyres. I'm a kiwi in the UK, and if it's expensive to run here, it will be eye watering in NZ.
I was at silverstone recently getting smoked by an e46 330i challenge car. It's a new series with parts you can buy in bits including ecu. My mind says this would be the way to go. Cheaper than an m3 for spares, a budding race series in the UK where you can buy parts resulting from their development, and it appeared very capable. there wasn't much keeping up with that car, which according to their facebook,page was on the original Ecu. In fact I'm weighing up changing the 130i out for one of these but will give it a year to see how the series develops.
I was at silverstone recently getting smoked by an e46 330i challenge car. It's a new series with parts you can buy in bits including ecu. My mind says this would be the way to go. Cheaper than an m3 for spares, a budding race series in the UK where you can buy parts resulting from their development, and it appeared very capable. there wasn't much keeping up with that car, which according to their facebook,page was on the original Ecu. In fact I'm weighing up changing the 130i out for one of these but will give it a year to see how the series develops.
What about an ausie Thunder saloon.
Holden v8. Lots of parts in Australia and New Zealand. Loads of grunt. Slightly iffy handling but a lot of fun. I would of thought this would be cheaper than a BMW as its a local market car. I chopped my 330i in for a monaro 18 months ago. It's a completely flawed car but has so much character you can't get me out of it.
A BMW or any other car mentioned would be a better handler. But a slightly left field option.
If you want a BMW track car I would suggest a 325ti compact. Very cheap, reliable, can be made very light and handle better than an e46 out of the box.
Holden v8. Lots of parts in Australia and New Zealand. Loads of grunt. Slightly iffy handling but a lot of fun. I would of thought this would be cheaper than a BMW as its a local market car. I chopped my 330i in for a monaro 18 months ago. It's a completely flawed car but has so much character you can't get me out of it.
A BMW or any other car mentioned would be a better handler. But a slightly left field option.
If you want a BMW track car I would suggest a 325ti compact. Very cheap, reliable, can be made very light and handle better than an e46 out of the box.
Zadkiel said:
This track car will be a lot less powerful and slower than some road cars I have. However they will be a bunch more fun to drive around the track because I don't have to worry.
Zadkiel said:
I want a car that will be enjoyable but has the potential to get better as I do. I don't want to win races, I want to have a good time.
Caterham then. The Land Rover of the track toy world. Interchangeable parts, swap in, swap out, upgrade, downgrade to your hearts content. Someone always wants the bits you're selling. Someone's always selling the bits you want to buy. As you grow with it, just as you think you've mastered it, there's a next step up.Will never be a fast car due to the aerodynamics of a brick, but will always be a quick car. The challenge is in exploiting the quickness. You will have loads more fun sub 100mph then you will ever have above the ton.
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