What counts as "timing"...?
Discussion
Does anyone have a strict definition of what insurers would count as timing on track? I don't use any apps/boxes etc myself, but it's pretty rife, and I suspect contributes to some of the poor driving standards so often observed. I take out TD insurance because I don't want to risk the entire value of my car, but it seems a little pointless if it's invalidated because others are ignoring the rules and the operators are condoing it.
So when is timing "timing" as the insurers would see it?A visibile lap timer should be an obvious banning, but what about data logging? (can still be analysed in the pits), or even videoing - since you can derive laptimes from playback?
Having had a quick look at some of the operators Ts & Cs I was surprised to see OpenTrack offer VBox hire - to me that's still pretty obviously timing. Meanwhile CircuitDays say "No timing or data logging equipment is allowed. Anyone caught timing will be exluded from the event with no refunds issued".
Are TDOs putting themselves at risk by condoning it? Or scared of going out of business if they actually enforce their own rules? I have a growing number of folk I've spoken to who have been put off TDs by worsening driving standards, especially from race teams trying to do test days on the cheap.
So when is timing "timing" as the insurers would see it?A visibile lap timer should be an obvious banning, but what about data logging? (can still be analysed in the pits), or even videoing - since you can derive laptimes from playback?
Having had a quick look at some of the operators Ts & Cs I was surprised to see OpenTrack offer VBox hire - to me that's still pretty obviously timing. Meanwhile CircuitDays say "No timing or data logging equipment is allowed. Anyone caught timing will be exluded from the event with no refunds issued".
Are TDOs putting themselves at risk by condoning it? Or scared of going out of business if they actually enforce their own rules? I have a growing number of folk I've spoken to who have been put off TDs by worsening driving standards, especially from race teams trying to do test days on the cheap.
I've only attended Knockhill and I've been to various types of days. Some are organised by Knockill themselves and others are 3rd party/club days. Every single briefing states no timing, the information at booking time also states this.
Yet no one enforces it. Tons of cars are timing, either through lap boxes or phones attached to somewhere in the cockpit. No one seems to care. This year there has been a ex pro going along in an ex BTCC car that has no business being on the track with track day goers.
Yet no one enforces it. Tons of cars are timing, either through lap boxes or phones attached to somewhere in the cockpit. No one seems to care. This year there has been a ex pro going along in an ex BTCC car that has no business being on the track with track day goers.
I believe timing in the context that is mentioned at briefings is perhaps better termed active timing, as in visible timing such that you know the lap time as soon as it has happened, is happening.
If you have to go to the pits, view a datalog, video etc, that is not the same, that is checking feedback.
If you can see/be told the lap time as you cross the line that is a no.
If you have to go to the pits, view a datalog, video etc, that is not the same, that is checking feedback.
If you can see/be told the lap time as you cross the line that is a no.
Exactly as e-bmw says. They don’t want people having a screen showing times / splits etc and try to beat them. There’s no way to enforce data logging being banned (a lot of cars also have basic data logging track functions now built in (Porsche GT cars, Lotus to name a couple).
I don’t see an issue as long as people are not actively timing and trying to set green or purple sectors during the day if that makes sense.
I don’t see an issue as long as people are not actively timing and trying to set green or purple sectors during the day if that makes sense.
My point was just that it would be impossible for the TD organisers to police if somebody has a data logger on their car but isn’t obviously using it during the day. They can’t search each car before it goes out onto track and where these systems are inbuilt, what would they do then.
Regarding your original post, I can’t see insurers refusing to pay out (assuming you have trackday insurance) because somebody else didn’t follow the rules and was timing. TD cover is for your vehicle and is also to protect you in the event that somebody causes damage to your car.
Regarding your original post, I can’t see insurers refusing to pay out (assuming you have trackday insurance) because somebody else didn’t follow the rules and was timing. TD cover is for your vehicle and is also to protect you in the event that somebody causes damage to your car.
My point was just that it would be impossible for the TD organisers to police if somebody has a data logger on their car but isn’t obviously using it during the day. They can’t search each car before it goes out onto track and where these systems are inbuilt, what would they do then.
Regarding your original post, I can’t see insurers refusing to pay out (assuming you have trackday insurance) because somebody else didn’t follow the rules and was timing. TD cover is for your vehicle and is also to protect you in the event that somebody causes damage to your car.
Regarding your original post, I can’t see insurers refusing to pay out (assuming you have trackday insurance) because somebody else didn’t follow the rules and was timing. TD cover is for your vehicle and is also to protect you in the event that somebody causes damage to your car.
jont- said:
Interesting that two of you think datalogging is perfectly fine, despite it being explicitly against both Circuit Days and Lotus on Track Ts & Cs.
Just because it's fitted in a vehicle doesn't mean you have to use it.
I never said it was "fine" just that it isn't against the rules, the rules are about real time visible timing for the driver.Just because it's fitted in a vehicle doesn't mean you have to use it.
As an organiser of track days, I agree with others who say that it's impossible to police timing.
But we are obliged by our insurers to advise participants that it is not allowed, so we include "Timing of cars is not permitted" in our T's & C's and repeat it at the drivers' briefing.
We monitor driving standards and take action if we believe people are not playing by the rules. But there is only so much that we can do without sitting inside each car!
John H
But we are obliged by our insurers to advise participants that it is not allowed, so we include "Timing of cars is not permitted" in our T's & C's and repeat it at the drivers' briefing.
We monitor driving standards and take action if we believe people are not playing by the rules. But there is only so much that we can do without sitting inside each car!
John H
Moderator edit: no advertising
Wouldn't insurers struggle to prove somebody else was timing themselves after the day when you are attempting to make a claim?
I understand why live timing isn't allowed, due to the organisers insurance but beyond that I'm not sure why anyone would want to have it banned. A delta is surely the most powerful tool you can have to learn and improve whilst driving on track? Most people are trying to drive as fast as they can within their limits with or without live timing.
I've only done two track days so far and I used video footage after the day both times to check lap times and try and get a read on what was working and what wasn't. I found myself trying slightly different lines here and there but with no real idea which was best.
I think the dangerous thing is going out with the attitude that my car is faster than xyz or I'm a better driver so I'm not letting you by. I had someone that didn't want to let me by on my first track day and after waiting for a lap or so I just chose to do a couple of cool down laps to gain space instead.
I understand why live timing isn't allowed, due to the organisers insurance but beyond that I'm not sure why anyone would want to have it banned. A delta is surely the most powerful tool you can have to learn and improve whilst driving on track? Most people are trying to drive as fast as they can within their limits with or without live timing.
I've only done two track days so far and I used video footage after the day both times to check lap times and try and get a read on what was working and what wasn't. I found myself trying slightly different lines here and there but with no real idea which was best.
I think the dangerous thing is going out with the attitude that my car is faster than xyz or I'm a better driver so I'm not letting you by. I had someone that didn't want to let me by on my first track day and after waiting for a lap or so I just chose to do a couple of cool down laps to gain space instead.
Edited by AndyR89180 on Friday 13th June 12:55
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