Best tracks for left-foot braking
Discussion
I'm keen to practise my left-foot braking technique and I wonder which circuits might be best. To practise I'm looking for tracks with a series of corners that I don't need to change gears between so I don't need to heel-and-toe and can just concentrate on braking and accelerating without changing down. So...two or three third gear corners with short straights in between...that kind of thing. The car's an E36 M3 Evo if that helps. Cheers for any suggestions
Sean Edwards said:
Practice it on the road, it's the best place, roundabouts especially.
If you really want a track, go to Nords. In the UK, Cadwell or Bedford would do.
Why do you want to practice left foot braking anyway? I never use it when racing GT cars, only when driving LMP's or on the PC.
I'm not as experienced a racing driver as you but I'd've thought it would be better to try this on a track? Somewhere with lots of run off like Bedford.If you really want a track, go to Nords. In the UK, Cadwell or Bedford would do.
Why do you want to practice left foot braking anyway? I never use it when racing GT cars, only when driving LMP's or on the PC.
Mind you, I agree it's just not needed on the road. The only time I ever felt I needed to left foot brake was when racing a mid engined MGF(
). As soon as I came off the brakes to turn in the car wanted to oversteer, I didn't have the talent to really get to grips with this but if I could've left foot braked and then applied throttle evenly as I came off the brakes I think the car would've been much better balanced and less likely to spin.Sean Edwards said:
Practice it on the road, it's the best place, roundabouts especially.
If you really want a track, go to Nords. In the UK, Cadwell or Bedford would do.
Why do you want to practice left foot braking anyway? I never use it when racing GT cars, only when driving LMP's or on the PC.
I'm surprised you don't use it Sean, why not? Yes, I do practice it on the road, but it's not the place for threshold braking practice! I want to practise it because it's such a good technique for smoothness, leading to better transitions in mid-corner and hence better balance. Anything that aids smoothness has got to be a good thing. I agree that the Ring is ideal but it's not as accessible as UK tracks. Bedford has three or four good points, I agree but I want to try new places.If you really want a track, go to Nords. In the UK, Cadwell or Bedford would do.
Why do you want to practice left foot braking anyway? I never use it when racing GT cars, only when driving LMP's or on the PC.
I think the times when LFB is really necessary are so rare that it's not likely to be any benefit for most people.
If you're just thinking about being able to jump between acceleration / braking that tiny fraction of a second quicker I'd say that was a waste of effort and likely to cost you more due to inaccurate braking than you would ever gain. In fact it's been said by some of the racing old salts that if a newcomer is looking a bit too keen you just casually mention that of course left foot braking is the only way to be competitive. That should put them off the pace for the next few races while they try to follow your "helpful" advice.
The only times I can see any point to LFB are:
In a turbo car to keep the power on without accelerating to overcome turbo lag.
In a 4wd car to prevent push-on understeer.
In a rwd car that is experiencing power oversteer if you want to pull it back into line without taking the power off.
All of these are techniques that solve specific problems and may be useful if you have those problems but not to be recommended otherwise.
If you're just thinking about being able to jump between acceleration / braking that tiny fraction of a second quicker I'd say that was a waste of effort and likely to cost you more due to inaccurate braking than you would ever gain. In fact it's been said by some of the racing old salts that if a newcomer is looking a bit too keen you just casually mention that of course left foot braking is the only way to be competitive. That should put them off the pace for the next few races while they try to follow your "helpful" advice.
The only times I can see any point to LFB are:
In a turbo car to keep the power on without accelerating to overcome turbo lag.
In a 4wd car to prevent push-on understeer.
In a rwd car that is experiencing power oversteer if you want to pull it back into line without taking the power off.
All of these are techniques that solve specific problems and may be useful if you have those problems but not to be recommended otherwise.
Edited by GreenV8S on Sunday 20th January 16:32
I'm not looking for huge benefits in time, I simply want to master good technique. It may well not make significant differences to lap times etc but it will make me a better driver if I learn to do it well. If others want to avoid it because it's too difficult then fair enough. I see it like heel-and-toeing; it's unlikely to make me much faster in my M3 but it's good for balanced, smooth driving. Therefore I do it. If others prefer to use their right foot to brake then each to their own.
So...to get back to my original question, where are the best tracks for practising?
So...to get back to my original question, where are the best tracks for practising?
I apologise for saying this again, but I do feel strongly about this (but if people want to fool themselves ..)
LFB when talked about in connection with circuit racing, is the biggest red herring you could ever be thrown. It's the sort of thing you'd suggest to a threatening novice in the hope he wastes a year establishing it's a real waste of time.
LFB is all about loose surfaces and getting a car turned without losing too much forward or rev momentum.
It has nothing to do with cicuit racing best practice. But if you want to practice the method, Bedford has to be the best bet.
Complete red herring imho.
LFB when talked about in connection with circuit racing, is the biggest red herring you could ever be thrown. It's the sort of thing you'd suggest to a threatening novice in the hope he wastes a year establishing it's a real waste of time.
LFB is all about loose surfaces and getting a car turned without losing too much forward or rev momentum.
It has nothing to do with cicuit racing best practice. But if you want to practice the method, Bedford has to be the best bet.
Complete red herring imho.
LFB is not used very often in RWD cars that you need to clutch with the downshift. I will use it on occasion into a fast corner where I just need a dab of the brake to get the front end in. In LMP and most formula cars, I use LFB because there is always going to be the slightest delay in going off the throttle and onto the brake and visa verse.
I meant practice LFB on the road, to get you're left foot used to braking, as if you have never done it before, you will slam on the brakes the first time you try it with you're left foot, as you have no feel in it.
I meant practice LFB on the road, to get you're left foot used to braking, as if you have never done it before, you will slam on the brakes the first time you try it with you're left foot, as you have no feel in it.
Edited by Sean Edwards on Sunday 20th January 23:51
GreenV8S said:
I think the times when LFB is really necessary are so rare that it's not likely to be any benefit for most people.
If you're just thinking about being able to jump between acceleration / braking that tiny fraction of a second quicker I'd say that was a waste of effort and likely to cost you more due to inaccurate braking than you would ever gain. In fact it's been said by some of the racing old salts that if a newcomer is looking a bit too keen you just casually mention that of course left foot braking is the only way to be competitive. That should put them off the pace for the next few races while they try to follow your "helpful" advice.
The only times I can see any point to LFB are:
In a turbo car to keep the power on without accelerating to overcome turbo lag.
In a 4wd car to prevent push-on understeer.
In a rwd car that is experiencing power oversteer if you want to pull it back into line without taking the power off.
All of these are techniques that solve specific problems and may be useful if you have those problems but not to be recommended otherwise.
Don't forget FWD, they would be pretty well stuffed without it.If you're just thinking about being able to jump between acceleration / braking that tiny fraction of a second quicker I'd say that was a waste of effort and likely to cost you more due to inaccurate braking than you would ever gain. In fact it's been said by some of the racing old salts that if a newcomer is looking a bit too keen you just casually mention that of course left foot braking is the only way to be competitive. That should put them off the pace for the next few races while they try to follow your "helpful" advice.
The only times I can see any point to LFB are:
In a turbo car to keep the power on without accelerating to overcome turbo lag.
In a 4wd car to prevent push-on understeer.
In a rwd car that is experiencing power oversteer if you want to pull it back into line without taking the power off.
All of these are techniques that solve specific problems and may be useful if you have those problems but not to be recommended otherwise.
Edited by GreenV8S on Sunday 20th January 16:32
Donny's got loads of "potential"
You may wish to alter the seat position and or pedal layout otherwise it really is a pain.
BTW - tried it and decided my hips were not designed that way
ph123 said:
I apologise for saying this again, but I do feel strongly about this (but if people want to fool themselves ..)
LFB when talked about in connection with circuit racing, is the biggest red herring you could ever be thrown. It's the sort of thing you'd suggest to a threatening novice in the hope he wastes a year establishing it's a real waste of time.
LFB is all about loose surfaces and getting a car turned without losing too much forward or rev momentum.
It has nothing to do with cicuit racing best practice. But if you want to practice the method, Bedford has to be the best bet.
Complete red herring imho.
tell that to the f1 boys who nearly all left foot brake and the karting guysLFB when talked about in connection with circuit racing, is the biggest red herring you could ever be thrown. It's the sort of thing you'd suggest to a threatening novice in the hope he wastes a year establishing it's a real waste of time.
LFB is all about loose surfaces and getting a car turned without losing too much forward or rev momentum.
It has nothing to do with cicuit racing best practice. But if you want to practice the method, Bedford has to be the best bet.
Complete red herring imho.
glol - pretty sure neither have clutch pedals to think about.
There really is limited benifit to it and I am pretty sure the original poster will not be at a stage where the benifits will be useful to him. It will only potentially cause issues during on limit track driving.
Anyway, as far as good circuits are concerned, I would look to ones where there isn't much to hit on every corner such as Bedford & Anglesey. I would keep away from oulton & Cadwell when trying this at anyhing approaching the limit.
Heel & Toe-ing in any car with a manual box is useful for smoothness & therefore speed but lfb will only help cook your already under endowed brakes.
There really is limited benifit to it and I am pretty sure the original poster will not be at a stage where the benifits will be useful to him. It will only potentially cause issues during on limit track driving.
Anyway, as far as good circuits are concerned, I would look to ones where there isn't much to hit on every corner such as Bedford & Anglesey. I would keep away from oulton & Cadwell when trying this at anyhing approaching the limit.
Heel & Toe-ing in any car with a manual box is useful for smoothness & therefore speed but lfb will only help cook your already under endowed brakes.
So you’re suggesting that, as there are 100 or so 2 pedal sports prototypes and F1/single seater race cars in the world (maybe a handful of others, that don’t have room for 3 pedals) that the many thousands who take part in circuit driving and amateur racing need to master an off-road rally driving trick, just in case…?
I’m suggesting that the great majority of circuit users would be far better employed honing and improving normal basic circuit & race driving disciplines & techniques.
On a circuit, at best it’s a aero trimming check for high speed sweepers or maintain boost pressures, no more. I suppose for a stubborn understeerer at hairpins, you could use lfb to destabilize the back end to get it turned, but you’re much more likely to loose control. Modern road cars have a devise which switches off the accelerator signals the moment the brakes are actuated in any case.
It’s just a bar-room throw away line which those who know, will recognize as supreme bo
ocks, imho. But quite useful to throw a promising youngster off the scent for a few weeks.
I’m suggesting that the great majority of circuit users would be far better employed honing and improving normal basic circuit & race driving disciplines & techniques.
On a circuit, at best it’s a aero trimming check for high speed sweepers or maintain boost pressures, no more. I suppose for a stubborn understeerer at hairpins, you could use lfb to destabilize the back end to get it turned, but you’re much more likely to loose control. Modern road cars have a devise which switches off the accelerator signals the moment the brakes are actuated in any case.
It’s just a bar-room throw away line which those who know, will recognize as supreme bo
ocks, imho. But quite useful to throw a promising youngster off the scent for a few weeks.
Cheers for the serious suggestions of where to go.
I'm a firm believer in the benefits and will continue to hone my technique. Whilst I take the point about it being more useful off-road than on-circuit, it is hard to argue with the point that it will lead to smoother driving, less delay between braking and throttle pick-up etc. The ability to overlap braking and throttle is excellent for keeping balance. In short, it's a technique that will make someone a better driver if they can get it right - even if it might be hard to master. For those that prefer to hop between pedals then fair enough but I want to have the ability to switch and adapt and decide when/where to use it. Even without being able to do it perfectly at the moment I can still feel a real difference in the transition phase. But I'm far from perfect - hence I want to practise!
I'm a firm believer in the benefits and will continue to hone my technique. Whilst I take the point about it being more useful off-road than on-circuit, it is hard to argue with the point that it will lead to smoother driving, less delay between braking and throttle pick-up etc. The ability to overlap braking and throttle is excellent for keeping balance. In short, it's a technique that will make someone a better driver if they can get it right - even if it might be hard to master. For those that prefer to hop between pedals then fair enough but I want to have the ability to switch and adapt and decide when/where to use it. Even without being able to do it perfectly at the moment I can still feel a real difference in the transition phase. But I'm far from perfect - hence I want to practise!
LFB seems to be only applicable to a very small percentage of race cars, such as
Karts - no clutch or gears, impossible to move right foot onto the brake due to the steering column.
Touring Cars - sequential gearboxes, need weight on the front of the car to turn in.
F1, Powerful single seaters - sequential gearboxes, the incremental time you save when powering away with the right foot directly over the throttle Vs the time taken to lift from the brake and then onto the throttle with traditional braking method.
Rally Cars - again for turn in on a loose surface.
That's about it as far as I can see. Unless you need to lose a bit of speed for an upcoming corner WITHOUT have to down change.
There was a series about Champ car racers that did a feature on Paul Tracy and his team mate. Tracy was losing about 4/10th of a second per lap to his teammate due to LFB, who had a long history in karts.
Many karters are now going from karting straight to FRenault, F3, etc thus avoiding the traditional series like FF1600 - they have never used their right foot (to brake) in racing!!!
Karts - no clutch or gears, impossible to move right foot onto the brake due to the steering column.
Touring Cars - sequential gearboxes, need weight on the front of the car to turn in.
F1, Powerful single seaters - sequential gearboxes, the incremental time you save when powering away with the right foot directly over the throttle Vs the time taken to lift from the brake and then onto the throttle with traditional braking method.
Rally Cars - again for turn in on a loose surface.
That's about it as far as I can see. Unless you need to lose a bit of speed for an upcoming corner WITHOUT have to down change.
There was a series about Champ car racers that did a feature on Paul Tracy and his team mate. Tracy was losing about 4/10th of a second per lap to his teammate due to LFB, who had a long history in karts.
Many karters are now going from karting straight to FRenault, F3, etc thus avoiding the traditional series like FF1600 - they have never used their right foot (to brake) in racing!!!
GarrettMacD said:
LFB seems to be only applicable to a very small percentage of race cars, such as
Karts - no clutch or gears, impossible to move right foot onto the brake due to the steering column.
Touring Cars - sequential gearboxes, need weight on the front of the car to turn in.
F1, Powerful single seaters - sequential gearboxes, the incremental time you save when powering away with the right foot directly over the throttle Vs the time taken to lift from the brake and then onto the throttle with traditional braking method.
Rally Cars - again for turn in on a loose surface.
That's about it as far as I can see. Unless you need to lose a bit of speed for an upcoming corner WITHOUT have to down change.
There was a series about Champ car racers that did a feature on Paul Tracy and his team mate. Tracy was losing about 4/10th of a second per lap to his teammate due to LFB, who had a long history in karts.
Many karters are now going from karting straight to FRenault, F3, etc thus avoiding the traditional series like FF1600 - they have never used their right foot (to brake) in racing!!!
I saw that episode about Paul Tracy, very interesting. And yes, you'r right in my current car I can only use LFB in corners where no downshift is needed. That's why I'm on the hunt for the most suitable circuits with this type of corner sequence.Karts - no clutch or gears, impossible to move right foot onto the brake due to the steering column.
Touring Cars - sequential gearboxes, need weight on the front of the car to turn in.
F1, Powerful single seaters - sequential gearboxes, the incremental time you save when powering away with the right foot directly over the throttle Vs the time taken to lift from the brake and then onto the throttle with traditional braking method.
Rally Cars - again for turn in on a loose surface.
That's about it as far as I can see. Unless you need to lose a bit of speed for an upcoming corner WITHOUT have to down change.
There was a series about Champ car racers that did a feature on Paul Tracy and his team mate. Tracy was losing about 4/10th of a second per lap to his teammate due to LFB, who had a long history in karts.
Many karters are now going from karting straight to FRenault, F3, etc thus avoiding the traditional series like FF1600 - they have never used their right foot (to brake) in racing!!!
kusee pee said:
And yes, you'r right in my current car I can only use LFB in corners where no downshift is needed. That's why I'm on the hunt for the most suitable circuits with this type of corner sequence.
I have tried LFB at the following corners;Silverstone, Copse: Fifth gear - scared the bejesus out of myself for no real gain
Brands, Clearways: Third Gear - definitely helped to get the gear turned in better, but I did find that I didn't get the force onto the brake pedal that I would have got from my right foot. Result = longer braking distance. Not ideal...
I seem to remember the rumour that a few years ago Jackie Stewart was doing some kind of corporate day for Williams F1 at Silverstone. Montoya was also there. Two polar opposite drivers separated by what, 30 years?
Despite throwing the car around, using all his 'current' F1 techniques, LFB, clutchless upshifts, etc, Montoya couldn't get anywhere near Stewart's times. Stewart is one of smoothest drivers of all time. Smoothless in all areas - braking, turning, etc, will always be faster.
GarrettMacD said:
Despite throwing the car around, using all his 'current' F1 techniques, LFB, clutchless upshifts, etc, Montoya couldn't get anywhere near Stewart's times. Stewart is one of smoothest drivers of all time. Smoothless in all areas - braking, turning, etc, will always be faster.
Couldn't agree more. Smoothness is everything!Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff