Track day tyres
Discussion
hi, basic Q about tyres, as i'm tinking of buying 2nd set of wheels, so i can use a set of tyres for road/winter, and a set for track (and summer). Is it fair to say that track tyres such as Toyo 888's are not suitable for road use and/or not suitable for road use in the wet?? In other words, do i need to bother with 2 sets of tyres/wheels?
thanks
nick
thanks
nick
nickb55 said:
Is it fair to say that track tyres such as Toyo 888's are not suitable for road use and/or not suitable for road use in the wet??
No, not at all bad in wet when new, not so nice as worn, better on track in the wet when new than road tyres- as long as not sheets of standing water, but prefer the security of decent road tyres in winter on the road tho.Edited by iguana on Monday 21st January 23:06
The 888s are fine if it's not too wet, but they are VERY sketchy on standing water. Sidewalls are much stiffer than a standard road tyre too so they're more uncomfortable, and they are noisy as well (you'll think your wheel bearings have gone).
I often leave them on the car if I don't have time to change them at the end of the day or if it's only a week to my next track day, but you're much better off with normal road tyres for road use. 2 sets of wheels are what you'd need. I don't know what size your normal wheels are, but if you have a second set you can go for 15" rims which means tyres are cheaper too.
Alternatively, depending on your car, you could just go for a decent road tyre (Yoko Advan etc) and not bother with swapping your wheels over all the time. That's probably what I'll do next time - I'm getting lazy and anyway it's not like you get any prizes for going faster, you just wear out your components faster and increase the consequences of getting it wrong...
I often leave them on the car if I don't have time to change them at the end of the day or if it's only a week to my next track day, but you're much better off with normal road tyres for road use. 2 sets of wheels are what you'd need. I don't know what size your normal wheels are, but if you have a second set you can go for 15" rims which means tyres are cheaper too.
Alternatively, depending on your car, you could just go for a decent road tyre (Yoko Advan etc) and not bother with swapping your wheels over all the time. That's probably what I'll do next time - I'm getting lazy and anyway it's not like you get any prizes for going faster, you just wear out your components faster and increase the consequences of getting it wrong...
Birdthom said:
The 888s are fine if it's not too wet, but they are VERY sketchy on standing water. Sidewalls are much stiffer than a standard road tyre too so they're more uncomfortable, and they are noisy as well (you'll think your wheel bearings have gone).
The only time I've aquaplaned was coming back from the 'Ring on R888s; Belgian autoroute went from bone dry to 3-lane river inside 200m. Made a mental note to change underpants at the earliest opportunity and slowed down to about 40 mph.Wheel bearings? I thought my diff was on the way out, so I took a spare with me
Thanks for the info, just what i wanted to know. The car's a 968cs, which i want to use on the road, and also have some days booked with Don Palmer, Andy Walsh etc, when i expect the tyres will take a hammering. Also the case that less grippy tyres better for those days (ie. learning). Think i'll get the 2nd set, and have one for something like 888's (or DZ02/03's), and anther set of cheaper tryres (heard good things about Falken 452's) for road/winter/off-track tuition.
thanks again
nick
thanks again
nick
One problem with running normal road tires on track is that they tend to overheat very quickly, which means you have to do shorter sessions or put in a couple of slow laps every each time they go off (it feels like you have a puncture, the first time you experience it)
Run like this and you can destroy a set of pure road tires in a day!
The road legal track tires cope much better in this regard, typically you will get as many as 4 or 5 track days from a set of 888s, 48Rs, cups etc. unless you join the "Drift monkey" club.
Whether it is worth getting a second set of wheels and tires, really depends on how many trackdays you plan to do.
Run like this and you can destroy a set of pure road tires in a day!
The road legal track tires cope much better in this regard, typically you will get as many as 4 or 5 track days from a set of 888s, 48Rs, cups etc. unless you join the "Drift monkey" club.
Whether it is worth getting a second set of wheels and tires, really depends on how many trackdays you plan to do.
a second set of rims is worth it imho.
i bought a set early last year for the Michelin Cups and worked a treat, and means you save on swapping tyres over if you run track tyres and then the rims are still worth cash when its all over.
for track days Cups and T888 etc etc stil get affected by eat quite quickly as the grip and friction are much higher but the compounds cope better to a higher limit. The side walls are better engineered so you can run lower pressures (which some put up due tot he weight of cars and roll but makes the tyre temp worse)
I did a Don Palmer last year and i think you would do better on a cheap road tyre half worn rather than track tyres or new road tyres. You dont need the grip of track tyres and they dont have much tread anyway, and new road tyres have too deep a tread and you roll the tread edges making them ruined pretty quickly, especially on a concrete airfield (if you are off to Brunters)
i bought a set early last year for the Michelin Cups and worked a treat, and means you save on swapping tyres over if you run track tyres and then the rims are still worth cash when its all over.
for track days Cups and T888 etc etc stil get affected by eat quite quickly as the grip and friction are much higher but the compounds cope better to a higher limit. The side walls are better engineered so you can run lower pressures (which some put up due tot he weight of cars and roll but makes the tyre temp worse)
I did a Don Palmer last year and i think you would do better on a cheap road tyre half worn rather than track tyres or new road tyres. You dont need the grip of track tyres and they dont have much tread anyway, and new road tyres have too deep a tread and you roll the tread edges making them ruined pretty quickly, especially on a concrete airfield (if you are off to Brunters)
shim said:
a second set of rims is worth it imho.
i bought a set early last year for the Michelin Cups and worked a treat, and means you save on swapping tyres over if you run track tyres and then the rims are still worth cash when its all over.
for track days Cups and T888 etc etc stil get affected by eat quite quickly as the grip and friction are much higher but the compounds cope better to a higher limit. The side walls are better engineered so you can run lower pressures (which some put up due tot he weight of cars and roll but makes the tyre temp worse)
I did a Don Palmer last year and i think you would do better on a cheap road tyre half worn rather than track tyres or new road tyres. You dont need the grip of track tyres and they dont have much tread anyway, and new road tyres have too deep a tread and you roll the tread edges making them ruined pretty quickly, especially on a concrete airfield (if you are off to Brunters)
yes, as u say the rims will always be worth something. i bought a set early last year for the Michelin Cups and worked a treat, and means you save on swapping tyres over if you run track tyres and then the rims are still worth cash when its all over.
for track days Cups and T888 etc etc stil get affected by eat quite quickly as the grip and friction are much higher but the compounds cope better to a higher limit. The side walls are better engineered so you can run lower pressures (which some put up due tot he weight of cars and roll but makes the tyre temp worse)
I did a Don Palmer last year and i think you would do better on a cheap road tyre half worn rather than track tyres or new road tyres. You dont need the grip of track tyres and they dont have much tread anyway, and new road tyres have too deep a tread and you roll the tread edges making them ruined pretty quickly, especially on a concrete airfield (if you are off to Brunters)
agree about the Don Palmer day. Luckily, my tires are bstone s02's and i was at bedord on the 12th with Calum Lockiefor instruction *. The tyres are about 50-65% worn, and i'm off the b'thorpe on friday for Don P, so as it happens i think they'll be just right for that.
i run the bstone at 36psi, and after a few hot laps they were 41 and we let em down to 36. You've partially answered my next stupid Q, about psi for the 888's. Looking thru the threads, i was wondering why they run on (much) lower pressure. Looks like most run them at mid/late 20's when they're at full track temperature ?
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/autobild-trac... might be of use
ETA: The R888 page is looking rather bear if anyone would like to fill out a review
ETA: The R888 page is looking rather bear if anyone would like to fill out a review
Edited by jon- on Tuesday 22 January 18:39
Hi Nick,
I have a CS and just got some R888's for the end of last year.
I done one track day on them at Oulton in the pooring rain (forecast was dry).
The grip is amazing in the wet, until you get a lot of standing water.
Best place for the R888 tyres in my opionion is Stephen Girdwood steve@simplytyres.co.uk 07737-741-634 , by far the cheapest, and he is a top guy.
Steve recomended the following tyre presures: -
Roughly if your car is around 1100-1200kg then aprrox front hot pressure 36ps rears hot 32-33 approx,cold pressure for road use as normal for car and cold pressure for track down the hot pressure by 3 psi allround.
The tyres will jump up a lot in pressure on first session then a little higher on the secound and on the third session they are stablized.
I have Michelin Pilot Sports for road tyres, good arounders.
If you are getting a set of rims, be "very" careful on the offsets and sizes
Rears are 17"x 9" ET55
Fronts are 17"x 7.5" ET65
They are marked up on your rims, also check the inside markings on yours for ref, as it will be needed if your buying a second hand set and you want to make sure they are origionals.
Most Porsche specialist sale different offsets and normally 7" for the front
Second hand orgionals are difficult to come by.
Origionals still available from Porsche Fronts 375 + Vat each, and rears in the 900 + vat region each.
Funny enough the fronts are the hardest to find.
Hope this helps
I have a CS and just got some R888's for the end of last year.
I done one track day on them at Oulton in the pooring rain (forecast was dry).
The grip is amazing in the wet, until you get a lot of standing water.
Best place for the R888 tyres in my opionion is Stephen Girdwood steve@simplytyres.co.uk 07737-741-634 , by far the cheapest, and he is a top guy.
Steve recomended the following tyre presures: -
Roughly if your car is around 1100-1200kg then aprrox front hot pressure 36ps rears hot 32-33 approx,cold pressure for road use as normal for car and cold pressure for track down the hot pressure by 3 psi allround.
The tyres will jump up a lot in pressure on first session then a little higher on the secound and on the third session they are stablized.
I have Michelin Pilot Sports for road tyres, good arounders.
If you are getting a set of rims, be "very" careful on the offsets and sizes
Rears are 17"x 9" ET55
Fronts are 17"x 7.5" ET65
They are marked up on your rims, also check the inside markings on yours for ref, as it will be needed if your buying a second hand set and you want to make sure they are origionals.
Most Porsche specialist sale different offsets and normally 7" for the front
Second hand orgionals are difficult to come by.
Origionals still available from Porsche Fronts 375 + Vat each, and rears in the 900 + vat region each.
Funny enough the fronts are the hardest to find.
Hope this helps
shawn 968cs said:
Hi Nick,
I have a CS and just got some R888's for the end of last year.
I done one track day on them at Oulton in the pooring rain (forecast was dry).
The grip is amazing in the wet, until you get a lot of standing water.
Best place for the R888 tyres in my opionion is Stephen Girdwood steve@simplytyres.co.uk 07737-741-634 , by far the cheapest, and he is a top guy.
Steve recomended the following tyre presures: -
Roughly if your car is around 1100-1200kg then aprrox front hot pressure 36ps rears hot 32-33 approx,cold pressure for road use as normal for car and cold pressure for track down the hot pressure by 3 psi allround.
The tyres will jump up a lot in pressure on first session then a little higher on the secound and on the third session they are stablized.
I have Michelin Pilot Sports for road tyres, good arounders.
If you are getting a set of rims, be "very" careful on the offsets and sizes
Rears are 17"x 9" ET55
Fronts are 17"x 7.5" ET65
They are marked up on your rims, also check the inside markings on yours for ref, as it will be needed if your buying a second hand set and you want to make sure they are origionals.
Most Porsche specialist sale different offsets and normally 7" for the front
Second hand orgionals are difficult to come by.
Origionals still available from Porsche Fronts 375 + Vat each, and rears in the 900 + vat region each.
Funny enough the fronts are the hardest to find.
Hope this helps
Shawn, that's really helpful, many thanks. I'll give I have a CS and just got some R888's for the end of last year.
I done one track day on them at Oulton in the pooring rain (forecast was dry).
The grip is amazing in the wet, until you get a lot of standing water.
Best place for the R888 tyres in my opionion is Stephen Girdwood steve@simplytyres.co.uk 07737-741-634 , by far the cheapest, and he is a top guy.
Steve recomended the following tyre presures: -
Roughly if your car is around 1100-1200kg then aprrox front hot pressure 36ps rears hot 32-33 approx,cold pressure for road use as normal for car and cold pressure for track down the hot pressure by 3 psi allround.
The tyres will jump up a lot in pressure on first session then a little higher on the secound and on the third session they are stablized.
I have Michelin Pilot Sports for road tyres, good arounders.
If you are getting a set of rims, be "very" careful on the offsets and sizes
Rears are 17"x 9" ET55
Fronts are 17"x 7.5" ET65
They are marked up on your rims, also check the inside markings on yours for ref, as it will be needed if your buying a second hand set and you want to make sure they are origionals.
Most Porsche specialist sale different offsets and normally 7" for the front
Second hand orgionals are difficult to come by.
Origionals still available from Porsche Fronts 375 + Vat each, and rears in the 900 + vat region each.
Funny enough the fronts are the hardest to find.
Hope this helps
Steve a call on the 888's etc.
re. wheels, i found a set of original cup2's, but PWS do cup1 replicas for about 700 quid, and i'm told they're a decent outfit. You're right about the o/set. and the reps et 52 and 47. but i checked with chris franklin who did the geo and he said that'd be fine, even if we lower the car further next time. I'd also heard the rep are heavier, but according to pws they about the same (orig rear are 10kg), and i guess even if a bit heavier,the wider track on the other hand is better??
the behaviour of the tyre pressure over sessions you describe was exactly as happened on my day with culum L. ie as u let air out the subsequent change(s) in pressure gets smaller.
btw, i think the reason the front are hard to come by, is the 968 was the only car to have 7.5" on the front.
thx again.
Hi Nick,
Your welcome.
Will you have to change the geo, each time you swap from origional wheels to the rep's?
What suspension do you have KW?
Guess I will see you at a track someday, have to compare notes.
Rgds
Shawn
PS I got the price of the genuine porsche rear wheels incorrect, they are £756.75 + vat each "bargin"
PPS I you get your tyres from Simply Tyres delivered remember to allow for fitting, could be cheaper overall from PWS.Possibly worth design 911 a try, from memory wheels and r888 where £1200. plus VAT & pp. One of these companies imports them, can't remeber which one (cheapest one I would imagine)
Your welcome.
Will you have to change the geo, each time you swap from origional wheels to the rep's?
What suspension do you have KW?
Guess I will see you at a track someday, have to compare notes.
Rgds
Shawn
PS I got the price of the genuine porsche rear wheels incorrect, they are £756.75 + vat each "bargin"
PPS I you get your tyres from Simply Tyres delivered remember to allow for fitting, could be cheaper overall from PWS.Possibly worth design 911 a try, from memory wheels and r888 where £1200. plus VAT & pp. One of these companies imports them, can't remeber which one (cheapest one I would imagine)
cheers Shawn. Yes, i put KWv3 on. Chris Franklin who did the geo was certain that the geo wouldn't need changing (each time),so the 2 sets of wheels are interchangeable.
yes, would be good to meet up. I'm in bedfordshire, so luckily quite central to most of the tracks. Should be doing one track day a month, time permitting. I'm at bedford on 16th Feb, and will be at CCombe in march/april. When i know what days/tracks etc i'm doing over the next few months, i'll pm you. Be great to see how it goes with the s/charger.
spoke to Steve, adn as u say, he was really helpful. He's the first person (retail) i've spoken to who seems to know about track tyres. Also not far from me as it happens.
cheers
Nick
p.s yes, i rang porshce out of curiosity aboutcost of new set... and it would be cheaper to buy a 2nd car instead!
yes, would be good to meet up. I'm in bedfordshire, so luckily quite central to most of the tracks. Should be doing one track day a month, time permitting. I'm at bedford on 16th Feb, and will be at CCombe in march/april. When i know what days/tracks etc i'm doing over the next few months, i'll pm you. Be great to see how it goes with the s/charger.
spoke to Steve, adn as u say, he was really helpful. He's the first person (retail) i've spoken to who seems to know about track tyres. Also not far from me as it happens.
cheers
Nick
p.s yes, i rang porshce out of curiosity aboutcost of new set... and it would be cheaper to buy a 2nd car instead!
Edited by nickb55 on Thursday 24th January 08:31
Edited by nickb55 on Thursday 24th January 08:33
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