Track Day Collisions
Discussion
Has anybody been involved in a collision on a track day? I would be interested to know how it occurred, any discussions you had with the other driver(s) and what part the track day organiser and circuit staff played in the aftermath.
Thanks for any information and experiences. PM me if you wish.
pp
Thanks for any information and experiences. PM me if you wish.
pp
Only seen two 'crashes' on trackdays in 10 years.
1st was a guy in a Golf VR6 who tried to chase me in my Corrado VR6 - unfortunately for him my car was slightly lower and stiffer than his and he underseered off at Hammerdown (Castle Combe) whilst I sailed round the 'corner'.
2nd was at Anglesey where a local guy in a caged hot-hatch dug a wheel into the dirt and rolled the car.
I think the guy at Anglesey hurt his arm a little, but not much else other than the damage to the cars.
I've 'heard' of other big ones (like the Porsche GT3 at Castle Combe who hit the back wheel of a vintage car and went into and then over the tyre wall.
1st was a guy in a Golf VR6 who tried to chase me in my Corrado VR6 - unfortunately for him my car was slightly lower and stiffer than his and he underseered off at Hammerdown (Castle Combe) whilst I sailed round the 'corner'.
2nd was at Anglesey where a local guy in a caged hot-hatch dug a wheel into the dirt and rolled the car.
I think the guy at Anglesey hurt his arm a little, but not much else other than the damage to the cars.
I've 'heard' of other big ones (like the Porsche GT3 at Castle Combe who hit the back wheel of a vintage car and went into and then over the tyre wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crvNtCFkvO0 At the then of this the lad get punted. So he might be able to tell you....
There was a coming together on the old Anglesey circuit a couple of years ago. (I was waiting for an instructor who was delayed as he had to have a word with the parties involved, so he told me what had happened to cause the delay).
IIRC, one car came blasting down the pit straight just as another car came out of the pits on cold tyres. Both cars had seen each other, but the driver on cold tyres thought the corner was his as he was in front, while the other driver thought it was his as he was up to speed and the other driver was on cold tyres. I think they came together possibly as a result of one of the cars losing it mid way round the corner (School?), hard enough to end their day, but not hard enough that they couldn't drive home.
The instructor said that if either one had just let the other go, it would never have happened.
Mike...
IIRC, one car came blasting down the pit straight just as another car came out of the pits on cold tyres. Both cars had seen each other, but the driver on cold tyres thought the corner was his as he was in front, while the other driver thought it was his as he was up to speed and the other driver was on cold tyres. I think they came together possibly as a result of one of the cars losing it mid way round the corner (School?), hard enough to end their day, but not hard enough that they couldn't drive home.
The instructor said that if either one had just let the other go, it would never have happened.
Mike...
been seen a thousand times - but for me the ONLY track day crash video - wait until the end and watch the caterfield get munched!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
I had a minor "touch" a while back on a Bedford TD, while I was on an out lap trying to warm the tyres up, just second corner out of the pit.
As I was still going reletively slow, I was conciously trying to let faster traffic pass on the straight.
I pulled to the right on a very short straight, lifted just so the car can pass easily, which it did just before the turn in point. I then proceeded to turn in and head for the apex, little did I know there's a chap in a Noble trying to nip pass too!!! My rear bumper just clipped his front bumper as he managed to brake just in time.
Minimum damage was done to the cars, we talked to each other in the pit and both of us just accepted it as a TD incidence.
I was still a novice then and just accepted it as it was, but now I would be a bit more up front about him shouldn't have been overtaking in braking zone and corners, instead of semi feeling guilty about not seeing him (or expected him to be there.
As I was still going reletively slow, I was conciously trying to let faster traffic pass on the straight.
I pulled to the right on a very short straight, lifted just so the car can pass easily, which it did just before the turn in point. I then proceeded to turn in and head for the apex, little did I know there's a chap in a Noble trying to nip pass too!!! My rear bumper just clipped his front bumper as he managed to brake just in time.
Minimum damage was done to the cars, we talked to each other in the pit and both of us just accepted it as a TD incidence.
I was still a novice then and just accepted it as it was, but now I would be a bit more up front about him shouldn't have been overtaking in braking zone and corners, instead of semi feeling guilty about not seeing him (or expected him to be there.
Edited by Butzi on Thursday 12th June 22:31
poshgit said:
been seen a thousand times - but for me the ONLY track day crash video - wait until the end and watch the caterfield get munched!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
This is why I'm never ever, ever, ever, doing an 'action day' at Combe! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
A good friend of mine had car-to-car contact at Llandow a couple of years ago. For those that know the track he came up behind a slower car (in his Megablade) coming round the last corner and waited for a signal to pass on the left, which duly came about 1/3 of the way up the staight, near the pit entry.
As he was accelerating to pass, another BEC which had been driven quite quickly but rather irratically all day by a couple of guys which I believe raced stock cars, came up behind and got a run on my mate who was slower than usual having waited to pass. At this point the other BEC decided to go 3 abreast to overtake both my mate and the slower car, all without permission. He completed his overtake just as they got to the braking area, but rather than brake on the left hand (pit wall) side going into the bus-stop, thus leaving both cars able to pick their braking point etc, he suddenly chopped back across to the racing line right in front of my mate who had nowhere to go and tapped the back of the other car under braking, breaking his nosecone and doing a bit of damage to the other car's rear panel.
When they came in to the pits the other guy (and his entourage) were very aggressive and arrogant about it, blaming my mate. The most telling thing they said though was "that's racing mate".... err no its not!
This incident would be acceptable in a racing environment because the car being overtaken would expect it to happen and when racing you do position your car to maximise your own speed and not allow your opponent an opportunity to pass back, but on a trackday chopping back on line 6ft in front of the car you're passing just as you enter a braking zone is not acceptable practice.
As in this case though, I think unless an organiser (the circuit themselves in this case) sees the incident and can clearly see who's to blame, they're are unlikely to get involved further than to calm people down and maybe check the cars are OK to go back on track. If the incident is seen and there's clearly somebody to blame though then Id expect the guilty party to have their track pass withdrawn for the remainder of the day, but the organiser wouldnt get involved any further I wouldnt think.
As he was accelerating to pass, another BEC which had been driven quite quickly but rather irratically all day by a couple of guys which I believe raced stock cars, came up behind and got a run on my mate who was slower than usual having waited to pass. At this point the other BEC decided to go 3 abreast to overtake both my mate and the slower car, all without permission. He completed his overtake just as they got to the braking area, but rather than brake on the left hand (pit wall) side going into the bus-stop, thus leaving both cars able to pick their braking point etc, he suddenly chopped back across to the racing line right in front of my mate who had nowhere to go and tapped the back of the other car under braking, breaking his nosecone and doing a bit of damage to the other car's rear panel.
When they came in to the pits the other guy (and his entourage) were very aggressive and arrogant about it, blaming my mate. The most telling thing they said though was "that's racing mate".... err no its not!
This incident would be acceptable in a racing environment because the car being overtaken would expect it to happen and when racing you do position your car to maximise your own speed and not allow your opponent an opportunity to pass back, but on a trackday chopping back on line 6ft in front of the car you're passing just as you enter a braking zone is not acceptable practice.
As in this case though, I think unless an organiser (the circuit themselves in this case) sees the incident and can clearly see who's to blame, they're are unlikely to get involved further than to calm people down and maybe check the cars are OK to go back on track. If the incident is seen and there's clearly somebody to blame though then Id expect the guilty party to have their track pass withdrawn for the remainder of the day, but the organiser wouldnt get involved any further I wouldnt think.
Edited by LocoBlade on Thursday 12th June 22:52
had a fairly big accident about 8 years ago at donnignton on coppice, some guy in a caterham had spun on some oil a lotus eprit turbo had dropped all the way around the circuit fro mthe old hair pin. I turned in blind and fully comitted as you do at coppice and found a guy broadside on in a caterham. Knowing i wouldnt stop if i braked and would more than likely spin if i tried to go round the outside I turned in a little more aimed for the gap to miss him. At which point he found neutral and rolled towards me. Properly bent the E30 M3 so i couldnt even open the door to get out, it kinked the roof, front wing, bonnet, door, rear quarter sill inner B post. Caterham was in a bad way as well. At least i didnt have far to drive home.
John D. said:
poshgit said:
been seen a thousand times - but for me the ONLY track day crash video - wait until the end and watch the caterfield get munched!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
This is why I'm never ever, ever, ever, doing an 'action day' at Combe! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQIhXrrk1_E
This was a caterham on it's slowing down lap having a spin at the exit of eau rouge on some coolant another car had dropped.
This was a caterham on it's slowing down lap having a spin at the exit of eau rouge on some coolant another car had dropped.
poshgit said:
been seen a thousand times - but for me the ONLY track day crash video - wait until the end and watch the caterfield get munched!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
Is there an oil-slick on that corner or something?
So are any of the TDOs that post on here brave enough to contribute to this ? or are track day collisions "the elephant in the room"
My recent collision experience does not involve any of the TDOs that post on here. The story so far is as follows:
I attended an open pit lane track day. There was an excellent morning briefing given by the TDO, usual stuff; no racing, overtake on the left, overtake only on the straights, slower cars pull over and let the faster ones pass on the straights etc.
During the course of the day a driver attempted an over taking manoeuvre through a non existant gap . His car collided with mine and he continued on at great speed. I proceeded to the pits and into the paddock area. I was unsure as to where he went as there were a number of cars of the same type and colour. I finally saw a car of the correct type being loaded onto a trailer. I walked round it and yes it had silver paint on the wing. The driver was inside with the door shut. He looked up and told me to leave (in less polite terms). I was taken aback. I didn't know the driver and the car was not registered. I had my phone with me so I snapped some pictures of the car, the towing vehicle and tried to get pictures of the driver. He kept ducking out the way so I couldn't get a clear shot. He made it clear he was s not going to talk to me and proceeded to make his departure. I hurriedly ran round to find the TDO. He came over, recognised the driver (much to my relief) and then proceeded to tell me he was not going to get involved.
I remonstrated with the TDO and requested he accompany me to the control room to review the video footage of the incident. We viewed the film of the incident. The control room operators advised they couldn't comment officially but did offer an opinion that the overtaking manouevre was not appropriate for a track day. The TDO kept telling me it was "not clear cut", "I didn't explicitly state you couldn't overtake there". After the comments from the control room operators he did finally acknowledge the driving was inappropriate. He also agreed he would contact the other driver. I left my contact details with the TDO, told him i would call him in a couple of days.
I duly phoned the TDO two days later. He advised he had been busy and hadn't got round to contacting the other driver. We proceeded to have a long discussion, he advised that on thinking about it further, he didn't think the TDO had any responsibility or duty to do anything further. He also advised there was little he could actually do. When I asked him about the other driver's overtaking manouevre he suggested that it was probably OK, open to debate, subject to opinion etc. despite the video of the incident and the comments from the control room operators. When asked about the driver's behaviour in the paddock, he suggested that yes he was a bit "surly" but that was all. He then spent the rest of the time mitigating the behaviour of the other driver and suggesting that I was over reacting.
So there you have it. I am appalled by the behaviour of the other driver, both on track and in the paddock. However, I am more appalled by the behaviour of the TDO who would quite clearly like to wash his hand of the whole episode.
As I mentioned before the TDO is not one that posts on here. It is part of a one make car club. (neither of the cars involved were old clunkers).
pp
My recent collision experience does not involve any of the TDOs that post on here. The story so far is as follows:
I attended an open pit lane track day. There was an excellent morning briefing given by the TDO, usual stuff; no racing, overtake on the left, overtake only on the straights, slower cars pull over and let the faster ones pass on the straights etc.
During the course of the day a driver attempted an over taking manoeuvre through a non existant gap . His car collided with mine and he continued on at great speed. I proceeded to the pits and into the paddock area. I was unsure as to where he went as there were a number of cars of the same type and colour. I finally saw a car of the correct type being loaded onto a trailer. I walked round it and yes it had silver paint on the wing. The driver was inside with the door shut. He looked up and told me to leave (in less polite terms). I was taken aback. I didn't know the driver and the car was not registered. I had my phone with me so I snapped some pictures of the car, the towing vehicle and tried to get pictures of the driver. He kept ducking out the way so I couldn't get a clear shot. He made it clear he was s not going to talk to me and proceeded to make his departure. I hurriedly ran round to find the TDO. He came over, recognised the driver (much to my relief) and then proceeded to tell me he was not going to get involved.
I remonstrated with the TDO and requested he accompany me to the control room to review the video footage of the incident. We viewed the film of the incident. The control room operators advised they couldn't comment officially but did offer an opinion that the overtaking manouevre was not appropriate for a track day. The TDO kept telling me it was "not clear cut", "I didn't explicitly state you couldn't overtake there". After the comments from the control room operators he did finally acknowledge the driving was inappropriate. He also agreed he would contact the other driver. I left my contact details with the TDO, told him i would call him in a couple of days.
I duly phoned the TDO two days later. He advised he had been busy and hadn't got round to contacting the other driver. We proceeded to have a long discussion, he advised that on thinking about it further, he didn't think the TDO had any responsibility or duty to do anything further. He also advised there was little he could actually do. When I asked him about the other driver's overtaking manouevre he suggested that it was probably OK, open to debate, subject to opinion etc. despite the video of the incident and the comments from the control room operators. When asked about the driver's behaviour in the paddock, he suggested that yes he was a bit "surly" but that was all. He then spent the rest of the time mitigating the behaviour of the other driver and suggesting that I was over reacting.
So there you have it. I am appalled by the behaviour of the other driver, both on track and in the paddock. However, I am more appalled by the behaviour of the TDO who would quite clearly like to wash his hand of the whole episode.
As I mentioned before the TDO is not one that posts on here. It is part of a one make car club. (neither of the cars involved were old clunkers).
pp
Edited by Pickled Piper on Friday 13th June 12:43
Alex said:
poshgit said:
been seen a thousand times - but for me the ONLY track day crash video - wait until the end and watch the caterfield get munched!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0-zkEyHIE&...
Is there an oil-slick on that corner or something?
Pickled Piper said:
Lots
That's the problem with trackdays and insurance though.Everyone should know that it's down to YOU to sort out cover because you don't know what's going to happen. The TDO only has liability when it can be shown that they did nothing about an erratic/dangerous/aggressive driver and then an accident ensued.
If they've been informed of this driver doing the same thing previously, then they should have had a word, if he keeps doing it and they don't throw him off then they are liable if he then goes on to cause an accident.
If something like this happens on the first couple of laps, then there's no way the TDO can be held responsible for letting a tosser like this out. Also, if no-one's bothered to report him previously then I'd suggest his driving wasn't considered bad enough to point it out to the TDO. If it has been pointed out and the TDO did nothing, then I'd be looking to them for recompense, which will usually receive a quick reply giving you the tosser's details rather than wanting you to sue the TDO.
Pickled Piper said:
So are any of the TDOs that post on here brave enough to contribute to this ? or are track day collisions "the elephant in the room"
i'm happy to add my 2p worth - 'live by the sword' and all that.thankfully, car-to-car contact is very rare at track days (BaT ones at least - I obviously can't talk for other TDOs!). We have had less than 10 incidents in the 10 years i've been organising track days. In that time i've organised IRO 650 track days, taking a total of well over 25000 bookings. Of those incidents, there are only a couple I would attribute 100% to one party. Of the others, it was usually quite clearly one persons "fault" but invariably do-or-die overtaking manoevres are carried out as a result of frustration at being held up or lack of observation from the car in front or both. Basically, if the car in front had been paying attention then :-
a) the car behind wouldn't have been held up and got frustrated enough to attempt an "illegal" move in the first place, and
b) the car in front would have seen the car behind going for the move and got out of the way
I'm not suggesting the previous poster falls into that category by the way.
As for the TDO getting involved - that's a tricky one obviously - no-one wants to end up defending themselves in court and if the TDO admits to an illegal overtaking manoevre they open themselves up to accusations of negligence in not suitably policing the traffic. That said, on the 2 occasions i've felt it was 100% one parties fault then i've leant on them as hard as possible in an attempt to get them to make some recompense (sadly unsuccessfully on both occasions).
I've driven more track miles than I care to add up and have come close to a few incidents myself - each one being avoided by good observation and forward planning - it's just like driving on the road but more intense really. I've even come close to taking out someone else myself on more than one occasion and i'll hold my hands up and say that it would have been entirely my fault - and directly as a result of being held up unnecessarily by the car in front. We're all human and red mist can affect us all - we just have to remember that frustration, impatience and especially lack of observation is what causes the vast majority of incidents.
When I drive within my capabilities and remain patient and observant I *never* have a problem on track - regardless of what incidents may occur around me. I'm obviously helped by the permanent taboo of the 'TDO causing a stoppage' which is partly why I can never push too hard but even so - I still get my kicks.
Jonny
BaT
Thanks for the comments guys.
Just to make it clear. I'm not suggesting the TDO is liable for the damage to my vehicle in any way. Taking aside the issue of who was to blame for the collision for a moment, I am appalled at the behavior of the other driver after the collision. I would have considered it a basic courtesy to seek out the other driver and have a chat. If you didn't want to speak to the driver for fear of aggressive behaviour, surely the right thing to do would be to contact the TDO or marshalls and not just try and make a fast exit. I am certain that had the car been road legal and not trailored, he would have been halfway home by the time I reached the paddock area. The main issue is the shoddy behaviour of the other driver and the reluctance of the TDO to do anything about it.
I do feel like I have been the victim of a "hit and run" and the TDO is telling me it's nothing to worry about whilst he also makes a sharp exit.
pp
Just to make it clear. I'm not suggesting the TDO is liable for the damage to my vehicle in any way. Taking aside the issue of who was to blame for the collision for a moment, I am appalled at the behavior of the other driver after the collision. I would have considered it a basic courtesy to seek out the other driver and have a chat. If you didn't want to speak to the driver for fear of aggressive behaviour, surely the right thing to do would be to contact the TDO or marshalls and not just try and make a fast exit. I am certain that had the car been road legal and not trailored, he would have been halfway home by the time I reached the paddock area. The main issue is the shoddy behaviour of the other driver and the reluctance of the TDO to do anything about it.
I do feel like I have been the victim of a "hit and run" and the TDO is telling me it's nothing to worry about whilst he also makes a sharp exit.
pp
Edited by Pickled Piper on Friday 13th June 14:35
Pickled Piper said:
I do feel like I have been the victim of a "hit and run" and the TDO is telling me it's nothing to worry about whilst he also makes a sharp exit.
Interesting thread and I am sorry to hear about this incident. It's the type that always is at the back of my mind, and one you can do very little about in those circumstances. However, I bet if the other party was on here he'd be complaining about being held up. Not that I'm suggesting that's what went on!I am however a bit curious as to what you realistically expected the TDO to do? After signing to accept all damage as your own responsibility with the waiver it's always going to be a moral call on the guilty party and the chap you are describing doesn't sound like a bastion of fair play.
I am however a bit curious as to what you realistically expected the TDO to do? After signing to accept all damage as your own responsibility with the waiver it's always going to be a moral call on the guilty party and the chap you are describing doesn't sound like a bastion of fair play.
I would agree with the above, you sign the forms and you accept that things might happen...
I would agree with the above, you sign the forms and you accept that things might happen...
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff