Track day hot hatch conversion or seven type roadster?
Discussion
Now this is hypothetical, as I don't have the space to store a car and trailer at the moment but after seeing people's track day cars at circuits, it got me thinking as to which is the most economical smiles per pound car to start with as a base for a track car.
Inspiration for this is 80's hot hatches stripped out, eg:
- Mk2 golf GTIs upgraded with coilovers, bolt on bigger brakes and 2.0 16v ABF engines dropped straight in.
- 205 GTIs with the same treatment etc etc
- A bit more money but theres plenty of cheap e36 325i about too
- A Mk1 MR2 might be fun too? I hear engine swaps are straight forward on these too? Could this be an elise chaser?!
You could start with a one of these standard, strip it out and buy tuning parts very cheaply (bigger brakes that bolt straight on, cheap coilovers, easy and cheap engine swaps).
Or would it even be cheaper in the long run to buy a seven type kit car and use that? Would it be much quicker /as much fun / cheap to maintain? Or these more credible as a motorsport car?
What makes the best starting point for a cheap fun track car? Discuss....
Inspiration for this is 80's hot hatches stripped out, eg:
- Mk2 golf GTIs upgraded with coilovers, bolt on bigger brakes and 2.0 16v ABF engines dropped straight in.
- 205 GTIs with the same treatment etc etc
- A bit more money but theres plenty of cheap e36 325i about too
- A Mk1 MR2 might be fun too? I hear engine swaps are straight forward on these too? Could this be an elise chaser?!
You could start with a one of these standard, strip it out and buy tuning parts very cheaply (bigger brakes that bolt straight on, cheap coilovers, easy and cheap engine swaps).
Or would it even be cheaper in the long run to buy a seven type kit car and use that? Would it be much quicker /as much fun / cheap to maintain? Or these more credible as a motorsport car?
What makes the best starting point for a cheap fun track car? Discuss....
Edited by was8v on Wednesday 12th November 10:37
I had this dilemma a few years ago and ended up buying a Caterham.
By the time you have properly sorted your hot hatch you will have spent nearly as much as it would have cost to buy a basic Caterham and you will still be slower round a circuit (if that matters to you). Your hot hatch (even a stripped out one) will weigh more than a Caterham and will wear out brakes, bushes, bearings, etc. more quickly so costing more to run. If you want to insure for the road then a Caterham will probably be cheaper on a specialist policy than a modified hatch.
Upside with a hatch is that you won't get wet which you undoubtedly will in a Caterham.
Having said all of that you will still have loads of fun in a hatch so really it comes down to personal preference.
By the time you have properly sorted your hot hatch you will have spent nearly as much as it would have cost to buy a basic Caterham and you will still be slower round a circuit (if that matters to you). Your hot hatch (even a stripped out one) will weigh more than a Caterham and will wear out brakes, bushes, bearings, etc. more quickly so costing more to run. If you want to insure for the road then a Caterham will probably be cheaper on a specialist policy than a modified hatch.
Upside with a hatch is that you won't get wet which you undoubtedly will in a Caterham.
Having said all of that you will still have loads of fun in a hatch so really it comes down to personal preference.
Shaun_E said:
I had this dilemma a few years ago and ended up buying a Caterham.
By the time you have properly sorted your hot hatch you will have spent nearly as much as it would have cost to buy a basic Caterham and you will still be slower round a circuit (if that matters to you). Your hot hatch (even a stripped out one) will weigh more than a Caterham and will wear out brakes, bushes, bearings, etc. more quickly so costing more to run. If you want to insure for the road then a Caterham will probably be cheaper on a specialist policy than a modified hatch.
Upside with a hatch is that you won't get wet which you undoubtedly will in a Caterham.
Having said all of that you will still have loads of fun in a hatch so really it comes down to personal preference.
We have had a 1.9 205 GTI on trackdays for about eight years now.By the time you have properly sorted your hot hatch you will have spent nearly as much as it would have cost to buy a basic Caterham and you will still be slower round a circuit (if that matters to you). Your hot hatch (even a stripped out one) will weigh more than a Caterham and will wear out brakes, bushes, bearings, etc. more quickly so costing more to run. If you want to insure for the road then a Caterham will probably be cheaper on a specialist policy than a modified hatch.
Upside with a hatch is that you won't get wet which you undoubtedly will in a Caterham.
Having said all of that you will still have loads of fun in a hatch so really it comes down to personal preference.
As it is currently for sale we did some figures and reckoned it stood us at about £3,500 for getting the car to it's current spec. This included buying the car in the 1st place, upgrading the suspension, brakes, rear beam, mounts, competition hoses, interior strip out, cage, seats, harnesses etc etc. Although we don't expect to get this figure for the re-sale, for 8 years worth of enjoyment it's proved pretty cost effective.
Over the eight years the car has been developed to an extent where it corners very well but is just a bit short of grunt compared to the "base" caterhams etc.
As you say the caterham esque cars are great in the dry and are no doubt quicker but the playing field is definitely levelled to a fair degree once the going is damp or wet.
Cheers.
I think you first need to decide what elements of fun are most important to you on a trackday.
e.g.
FWD or RWD?
How fast? - Some, like me, don't want to be going 50% faster than others, as you spend all your lap time waiting to be let past!
Stealth? - everyone expects a Seven to be quick. You only have downside, if someone overtakes you. That = pressure to perform. On the other hand, a sorted old hatch or MR2 gives you the other side of the coin.
(I'd go something like the MR2 option myself. RWD, stealthy, but not too fast)
e.g.
FWD or RWD?
How fast? - Some, like me, don't want to be going 50% faster than others, as you spend all your lap time waiting to be let past!
Stealth? - everyone expects a Seven to be quick. You only have downside, if someone overtakes you. That = pressure to perform. On the other hand, a sorted old hatch or MR2 gives you the other side of the coin.
(I'd go something like the MR2 option myself. RWD, stealthy, but not too fast)
Not strictly track-days, but...
I started off racing a 205GTi, firstly in 'boggo 1.6' spec just with the standard safety bits i.e. cage, seat, harness, extinguisher etc. This was great and let me develop my driving skills on a circuit reasonably inexpensively - the fact is, you WILL be slower than the car is capable of for quite a while, until you start to develop a feel for yourself, your car, and the limits of both and the track.
Once I felt like I was being limited by the car (c. one season), I then upgraded it and built/fitted a tuned engine with a lairy head, cam, bike carbs etc, and did some work to the suspension and brakes (standard 205 mods of lowered 1.9 beam, GAZ coilovers etc). This was more than enough for me to again be slower than the car, however this time my rate of learning increased and I quickly got to grips with it. This lasted until the middle of this season, when I felt like I could drive a LOT faster than the car was capable of.
I considered spending a bit more money - GTi6/Mi16 conversion, Wilwoods etc until I did the sums and worked out that, although I could afford to spend the money, the car would not be worth drastically more than it was presently and I would end up spending thousands on it. I had already spent something like £5k on the car (based on a £250 MoT failure), and it was never going to be worth more than £3k on a good day, with a following wind. It was also never going to be as fast as something lighter/sportier, and I wanted to go RWD as there will always be a limit to how much power you can usefully use in a FWD car.
So, I took the plunge, sold the 205 and bought a Stuart Taylor Locoblade - think Fireblade-engined Se7enesque kit car. I only spent c. £1k over what I got for the 205, but the difference in track behaviour is marked! I LOVE driving the Locoblade, and changing up at 10500rpm with the sequential box is not something to be sniffed at!
So in sum, by all means start with a hot hatch as they are a cheap and effective way to get on track - but if you can afford it I would personally cut out the middle man, spent about £4k and have something that will excite/terrify you in equal measure; there can't be many cars that produce as many smiles per mile! Sod the practicality, its a track car
Hope this helps,
Frodo
I started off racing a 205GTi, firstly in 'boggo 1.6' spec just with the standard safety bits i.e. cage, seat, harness, extinguisher etc. This was great and let me develop my driving skills on a circuit reasonably inexpensively - the fact is, you WILL be slower than the car is capable of for quite a while, until you start to develop a feel for yourself, your car, and the limits of both and the track.
Once I felt like I was being limited by the car (c. one season), I then upgraded it and built/fitted a tuned engine with a lairy head, cam, bike carbs etc, and did some work to the suspension and brakes (standard 205 mods of lowered 1.9 beam, GAZ coilovers etc). This was more than enough for me to again be slower than the car, however this time my rate of learning increased and I quickly got to grips with it. This lasted until the middle of this season, when I felt like I could drive a LOT faster than the car was capable of.
I considered spending a bit more money - GTi6/Mi16 conversion, Wilwoods etc until I did the sums and worked out that, although I could afford to spend the money, the car would not be worth drastically more than it was presently and I would end up spending thousands on it. I had already spent something like £5k on the car (based on a £250 MoT failure), and it was never going to be worth more than £3k on a good day, with a following wind. It was also never going to be as fast as something lighter/sportier, and I wanted to go RWD as there will always be a limit to how much power you can usefully use in a FWD car.
So, I took the plunge, sold the 205 and bought a Stuart Taylor Locoblade - think Fireblade-engined Se7enesque kit car. I only spent c. £1k over what I got for the 205, but the difference in track behaviour is marked! I LOVE driving the Locoblade, and changing up at 10500rpm with the sequential box is not something to be sniffed at!
So in sum, by all means start with a hot hatch as they are a cheap and effective way to get on track - but if you can afford it I would personally cut out the middle man, spent about £4k and have something that will excite/terrify you in equal measure; there can't be many cars that produce as many smiles per mile! Sod the practicality, its a track car
Hope this helps,
Frodo
Edited by frodo_monkey on Friday 14th November 09:44
)
I guess it depends on how serious you are, but starting off with a good hatch like a 205 gti and just replacing all bushes, track rod ends, get decent pads, high temp. brake fluid, get the tracking done, decent tyres and a full service. You can do all the coil over stuff later on.
I did a few track days at oulton park in my standard 106 rallye. First day I did I had stand pads, which I cooked, but other than that I still had fun with only 100hp. I was probably one of the slowest cars on the track, but it was still it was good.
I have a Westfield as well but mainly for road use, the only track I've been on in that was Curbrough. Th Westfield is great fun in the dry, a lot of performance for the money, but not so much fun in the wet.
I did a few track days at oulton park in my standard 106 rallye. First day I did I had stand pads, which I cooked, but other than that I still had fun with only 100hp. I was probably one of the slowest cars on the track, but it was still it was good.
I have a Westfield as well but mainly for road use, the only track I've been on in that was Curbrough. Th Westfield is great fun in the dry, a lot of performance for the money, but not so much fun in the wet.
frodo_monkey said:
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous statement 
Yeah, but there's absolutely no fun in being dripping wet and freezing cold, and this is supposed to be, above all else, fun. A number of people in open topped cars packed up and went home from the event that photo was taken at because they were cold, wet, miserable and couldn't see. Believe me, I was keen on the idea of a Caterfield until this season. (I can't get in a Caterfield when the roof's on...) Now I'm keeping the car with a roof;frodo_monkey said:
Sod the practicality, its a track car
That was bad enough, but at least I didn't need wipers on the inside of the windscreen, like this poor beggar did;
Edited by Zumbruk on Monday 17th November 18:32
Have a look at http://www.trackdayuk.com/
It's a company which rents out reasonably priced track day cars, including stripped Pugs and a recently aquired 7 style car. I think he had a 7 written off recently, not sure if that's been replaced yet. Nice guy, albeit the worlds worst website!
I'd reccomend giving him a call and see about renting some of his fleet, which will give you a good idea of which route you'd want to go down.
HTH.
It's a company which rents out reasonably priced track day cars, including stripped Pugs and a recently aquired 7 style car. I think he had a 7 written off recently, not sure if that's been replaced yet. Nice guy, albeit the worlds worst website!
I'd reccomend giving him a call and see about renting some of his fleet, which will give you a good idea of which route you'd want to go down.
HTH.
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