THE RING

[tomvcarter]

Hi i want to go and drive the Nordschlife (spelling) how/when can i do this and what does it cost?

[Munter]

Assuming you're thinking of taking your M3. I wouldn't. Unless you can check with your insurance company that it's covered. And I'll bet they refuse.

I would however suggest you check out http://rsrnurburg.com/ and think about hireing a car. There are several other ringrental type places as well. But Dale@rsr hangs out on here and seems to be nice to deal with.

[Hammerwerfer]

Last thing anyone should do is ask their insurance company if they are covered. Do not mention the Nuerburgring or Nordschleife to any insurer.

Read the damn policy. If it says you are not covered you are not. If it does not mention the Nordschleife or "derestricted toll roads" then you are covered.

If you ask you will be told that you are not covvered, and chances are that in the future, your company will start writing in some sort of exclusion to that effect in their policies.

Do not ask any insurance company if you are covered. It will only screw things up for everyone else if you do!

[Munter]

Hammerwerfer said:

Read the damn policy. If it says you are not covered you are not. If it does not mention the Nordschleife or "derestricted toll roads" then you are covered.

As we found out last year this may not be correct! The insureres claim it's not true. And will lead to (so far, over 6 months) of legal wrangling and sending it to the FOS. Even if the result is finally a success it's still not worth it.

In the policy there is no mention of the 'ring in any form. Not even as a derestricted toll road. Nothing. The insurers simply do not class it as a public road, and therefore claim it's nothing to do with them, not even the 3rd party claim. Regardless of what the German authorities say about the status of the road on public days.

Now this case might still be won. But still, it's NOT worth the risk of the hasle. Check if they DO cover. And it they do not, dont go until you find cover.

Edited by Munter on Monday 16th February 10:50

[Hammerwerfer]

I cannot agree with you. Read the policy. It is a legally binding document.

If the 'ring is not excluded, then it is included. The insurers will try to wriggle, but they do not have an out.

If you want to swcrew things up for the thousands of Brits who vist the 'ring, by all means check with your insurance company. Otherwise, mum's the word.

This issue has been discussed at lenght on many forums.

[Munter]

Hammerwerfer said:

I cannot agree with you. Read the policy. It is a legally binding document.

If the 'ring is not excluded, then it is included. The insurers will try to wriggle, but they do not have an out.

If you want to swcrew things up for the thousands of Brits who vist the 'ring, by all means check with your insurance company. Otherwise, mum's the word.

This issue has been discussed at lenght on many forums.

Trust me. It's already screwed up, and were these discussions in the last 6 months? Otherwise there would be a fixed car not a broken one in my mates garage. The insurers have had enough and are refusing to cover people on the ring even if there is no specific exclusion in the policy. And until we see a result from the FOS we dont know which way it's going to go in the future. We can't see how the cars not covered in the policy, the lawers can't see how the cars not covered in the policy. But the insurance company are fighting it all the way. (It's not like this path of going to the FOS was the 1st option and nobody looked at the policy!!)

You want to advise someone to risk spending well over £100,000 if they have an accident? Fine you're welcome to do that. I'm not prepared to make that statment until a result is had from the FOS on a policy that was deliberately chosen because the ring was not excluded in any way.

If the FOS result is a success then I'll move my position. Until that time, or if it's not a success I'll advise that people do NOT assume that they are covered if theres no mention of the 'ring/nordschlife/de restricted toll roads or anything else.

[jleroux]

Munter said:

The insurers have had enough and are refusing to cover people on the ring even if there is no specific exclusion in the policy.

Is your use of the plural "insurerS" based on more than one case or just this one you are involved with? not being obtuse - it's a genuine question - I won't visit the ring on touristfahrten days for this very reason and would quite like to see the situation resolved one way or the other. If it gets excluded from all road policies at least we know where we stand. Another insurer will pop up and start offering cover, without doubt.

Jonny
BaT

[Chris71]

Be warned the majority of insurers do specifically exclude it. Also, while I'd have to agree it's a legally binding document, I suspect the insurance company would do a very good job of wriggling out if you had to claim. They do that at the best of times.

[Munter]

jleroux said:

Munter said:

The insurers have had enough and are refusing to cover people on the ring even if there is no specific exclusion in the policy.

Is your use of the plural "insurerS" based on more than one case or just this one you are involved with?

Jonny
BaT

Just the one case that I know of. But You have the Company that sold the policy and handle the initial claim, then the underwriter (a big un), but I guess I used plural because it's not a case of 1 persons decision. There have been several people involved in their decision. It's not simply the call center that said no.

One way or the other it needs to be made clear if UK road insurers are going to cover the nordschleife. Because the info from the past saying if it's not excluded you're covered has led to a LOT of stress and financial uncertainty until the FOS make a decision. Hopefully the FOS will uphold the claim as we think they should. But I wouldn't want anybody else to have to go through this process even if the outcome is positive in the end.

[jleroux]

personally, I would like to see a ruling that the nordschliefe was excluded from all road policies as standard (saves us all money in the long run) and an optional added premium (and massive excess) to have it added back in.

anyone who thinks insurers will/should cover the ring long term "becase they are legally obliged to" and not pass on the sizeable annual cost to the punters is a fool.

Jonny
BaT

[jimbobs]

Munter said:

Just the one case that I know of.

Is this the same case that's been discussed over on Northloop with the Z4 / M3 incident? It's scary stuff and has certainly made me think very carefully about whether I'll ever be doing a TF day again.

That and the increasing number of utter nobbers heading out there these days. It's so different from a few years ago - can you imagine what would happen if the ombudsman actually went out there on a Saturday in the summer?

Can we really put our hands on our hearts and say that we ought to be insured to drive on, what is effectively a 14 mile free-for-all? As long as a significant proportion of Brits are either completely ignorant of, or just choose to wilfully ignore, the rules then the risks are going to be way outside what we could reasonably expect our insurers to cover us for.

Which is why it's NOT ok for Skyline drivers to overtake where they damn-well please (with apologies for mixing in a rant for a separate thread).

But anyway, to the OP, have a look at Ben Lovejoy's site here
http://www.nurburgring.org.uk/

and the Northloop site here
http://www.northloop.co.uk/

Cheers all

Jim

Edited by jimbobs on Monday 16th February 12:32

[y2blade]

i will watch this thread with interest as i am going over for my first trip later this year

[fergus]

y2blade said:

i will watch this thread with interest as i am going over for my first trip later this year

Chris,

Luckily (or perhaps not) as a rider, you are less *likely* to be the *direct* cause of an accident, but you may be the victim of another's accident or spillage. From this perspective, other than covering the cost of your 1st party risks (i.e. your own property), I don't think the FOS outcome will affect you much.

If you need to sue/claim off another driver you can still do this, their issue becomes whether they are covered for 3rd party claims by their insurer. IMHO you would stand an almost 100% chance of a payout as the 3rd party involved.

[chrisr29]

tomvcarter said:

Hi i want to go and drive the Nordschlife (spelling) how/when can i do this and what does it cost?

Opening times here: http://www.nuerburgring.de/events.286.0.html

Cost is about 20 quid a lap. Avoid bank holiday weekends as it can get busy beyond belief. Check the weather before you go as they can get snow there up to and beyond Easter.

As mentioned, if you have a big off the costs can be horrendous!

Have fun but don't take the place lightly.....it can bite badly.

Above all though, it's an awesome place and petrol-head heaven

[y2blade]

fergus said:

y2blade said:

i will watch this thread with interest as i am going over for my first trip later this year

Chris,

Luckily (or perhaps not) as a rider, you are less *likely* to be the *direct* cause of an accident, but you may be the victim of another's accident or spillage. From this perspective, other than covering the cost of your 1st party risks (i.e. your own property), I don't think the FOS outcome will affect you much.

If you need to sue/claim off another driver you can still do this, their issue becomes whether they are covered for 3rd party claims by their insurer. IMHO you would stand an almost 100% chance of a payout as the 3rd party involved.

i am NOT going on one of my bikes!! F--K THAT!!! i'm going in the T5 and will be driving at my own pace and watching my mirrors

i have seen some clips on youtube that make me very nervous tbh and would not want to take a bike round there

[Dakkon]

Hammerwerfer said:

Last thing anyone should do is ask their insurance company if they are covered. Do not mention the Nuerburgring or Nordschleife to any insurer.

Read the damn policy. If it says you are not covered you are not. If it does not mention the Nordschleife or "derestricted toll roads" then you are covered.

If you ask you will be told that you are not covvered, and chances are that in the future, your company will start writing in some sort of exclusion to that effect in their policies.

Do not ask any insurance company if you are covered. It will only screw things up for everyone else if you do!

Yes, Munter is talking about me and the Z4M incident, you are offering really scary advice to people. I did exactly what you propose and now it is in the hands of the Ombudsman, my insurance company told me in no uncertain terms to bugger off, now the ombudsman may side with me, I hope so, but I am not holding my breath.

The Financial Ombudsman's Service are extremely busy currently but the calls I have had with them they say expect months rather than weeks to resolve, my life is in complete limbo on the basis that I could have a life changing bill coming my way. The crash happened in August 08 and could take another six months to resolve.

Personally I would advise that unless you know you have cover, assume you are not and treat the 'Ring as being un-insured.

[mjrc]

Munter said:

Assuming you're thinking of taking your M3. I wouldn't.

wimp

[Mattt]

Hammerwerfer do you really think Insurance Companies are unaware of the Ring?

[Munter]

mjrc said:

Munter said:

Assuming you're thinking of taking your M3. I wouldn't.

wimp

Yep. I dont like risk.

I think I should say none of what I've put above should stop you going. I just want to make sure you know the risks. I did it in my MX5. But thats worth about £500 in it's abused state. £500 was an ammout I could burn and survive. A nice M3.... Well it's less likely he's got the cash sat in the bank to cover it.

Go and do it. It's a great thing. But know what the risks are and after certain experiances, if you have an expensive car, I'd say use a 'ring hire car. RSRs Alfas are quite cheap to hire, rwd, and have more than enough power for someones 1st time at the 'ring. It's what I expect to do next time. And my cars only worth £500.

[jleroux]

the issue on public days is not the cost of your own car, it's the 3rd party liability. If you run over a biker and cripple them, you are expected to cough up and pay for that bikers needs for the rest of his (and his families?) lives. £500 stter or £500K exotica - it's insignificant in the grand scheme of the risk taken.