What makes a car a good 'tutor'?

[Chris71]

I've been mulling over what would make a good track day toy to improve my car control.

My first reaction was to go for something flattering to suit my current experience - this would help keep me on the black stuff (obviously a good thing) but is there such a thing as too flattering? Would something a bit more edgy which highlights mistakes more readily actually prove a better tutor?

[grahamn]

Hi Chris

The best value for money I have spent on the car regarding trackdays is in tuition. A good instructor is well worth the money.

[Munter]

Hire a few. There are 205s, MX5s, Caterhams all available for hire from various track companies. Each one will no doubt need a slightly different technique (certainly FWD compared to RWD), and with a tutor sat beside you you should be able to refine your driving in the lot. Wont be cheap though....

[pikeyboy]

I'll second this, tution is worth its weight in gold in whatever you drive, this experience can be transfered from car to car. Personally I dont like having an edgey nervous car and preffer soemthing predictable. Having some thing simple to drive/control with limits at a sensible level make for an enjoyable experience in my opinion, others will no doubt disagree

[Chris71]

Definitely appreciate the value of human instruction, but I was thinking more of the car. Can a flattering chassis which masks a beginner's incompetence still challenge them when they start to improve?

[pikeyboy]

Chris71 said:

Definitely appreciate the value of human instruction, but I was thinking more of the car. Can a flattering chassis which masks a beginner's incompetence still challenge them when they start to improve?

so for example if you had an MX5 which is a great first trackday car your thinking would it still be interesting to drive when you had lots of experience? In short yes but after a few laps you have to realise the limitations of what your driving. What sort of car are you thinking of?

[mat205125]

E30 325 sport
E36 328 sport
206 GTi
MX5

Rather than concentrate too much on the brand and model of the car, concentrate on the upkeep and maintenance of the car.

A Mk2 Golf 16v may be a good track companion, however if your car has 10 year old brake fluid and 4 shot dampers, it'll not be fun or safe

[Chris71]

pikeyboy said:

Chris71 said:

Definitely appreciate the value of human instruction, but I was thinking more of the car. Can a flattering chassis which masks a beginner's incompetence still challenge them when they start to improve?

so for example if you had an MX5 which is a great first trackday car your thinking would it still be interesting to drive when you had lots of experience? In short yes but after a few laps you have to realise the limitations of what your driving. What sort of car are you thinking of?

Well, I currently use my TVR S3 and anything else I can get my hands on and the idea was to replace that with something like an MX5 - cheaper to repair if anything goes wrong and more readily supported with spares and track mods.

But would something like an Elise push me to develop better car control? Can you get complacent in something front engined and docile?

[boxsey]

I love tracking my Porsche 964 very much for the reasons your question is asking. Apart from ABS, there is no electronic wizardry to help me out. It's very satisfying to know that keeping it on the black stuff is mostly down to the inputs I make myself. I've driven later variants of the 911 and boxsters on track and it's a far more sanitised experience (obviously I've not driven a GT3 ) and nowhere near as involving. Tuition has taught me a lot about how to get the best out of a 911, in particular how they turn much better by managing the weight transfer by correct use of the brakes. For me, track driving is a lot about learning how my car behaves when near the limit and not just about speed.

I think if I was to try something else I would hire a Caterham so I could experience the opposite engine/chassis layout.

[Chris71]

I can't deny a 911 briefly crossed my mind, but I think it'd be out of my budget, particularly if something major breaks. But as a general observation, yes, that was the sort of thing I was thinking of.

[poshgit]

Chris71 said:

......... Can a flattering chassis which masks a beginner's incompetence .........

hi chris - i was at the MoT day at Brands yesterday and saw you there - i was in the tatty old bmw e30.
i took my road going m3 on one track day and scared the pants off myself - it was car way above my ability. having been out in a few m3s driven properly and knowing its true potential i could not see the point in tracking one as i would never really exploit it to the full, so bought something cheap and cheerful to learn with in the hope that one day the driver will improve sufficiently to graduate to a faster car!
it is easy to make an e30 (and 205, mx5 etc) quicker -(brakes, suspension, cage etc etc) so much cheaper than on the faster cars.
i have cut a bit out of your quote and often feel like applying it to many of the "caterfield" drivers who turn up, swarm all over you but you wonder if they were in any other car is their ability really only being flattered by the car/chassis

.....get's coat and runs to door amid a hail of caterfield driver abuse....

[Munter]

Chris71 said:

I can't deny a 911 briefly crossed my mind, but I think it'd be out of my budget, particularly if something major breaks. But as a general observation, yes, that was the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Not a 911. But you might like the MK1 MR2 as an option. Mid engine so more of that weight near the rear, but cheap and light. Cheaper than an Elise for example. But plenty of aftermarket support for stiffer shocks/brakes etc.

[Chris71]

poshgit said:

.....get's coat and runs to door amid a hail of caterfield driver abuse....

The last time I went round that track was in a Caterham and I can confirm they do indeed flatter the incompetent!

Munter said:

MK1 MR2 as an option... Mid engine so more of that weight near the rear, but cheap and light. Cheaper than an Elise for example. But plenty of aftermarket support for stiffer shocks/brakes etc.

That's not a bad idea! I suppose there's the option to supercharge them fairly easy in the future too? Am I right in thinking that's also the 4AGE engine as supported by all the kit car people?

[Munter]

Chris71 said:

Munter said:

MK1 MR2 as an option... Mid engine so more of that weight near the rear, but cheap and light. Cheaper than an Elise for example. But plenty of aftermarket support for stiffer shocks/brakes etc.

That's not a bad idea! I suppose there's the option to supercharge them fairly easy in the future too? Am I right in thinking that's also the 4AGE engine as supported by all the kit car people?

Not sure if you can supercharge them when you start with an NA very easily. But you can buy the supercharged version. Good ones 'appear' to be holding their price as well. For the few laps I got out of mine before the engine went pop it was good fun. Changing down a gear while turning in to Tower at Coombe made the back move about a bit

If you want more power (and hence more expence to run) MK2 MK2 Turbos are also cheaper than an elise and plentiful. And I'm led to believe more "interesting" on the limit.

[Chris71]

I thought it was usually the gearbox or the bodywork that went pop?

Joking aside, the only downside I can think with an older car like a mk1 MR2 is durability. A mk2 might be an option (always thought they were underated) but it's a bigger heavier car so might be less competitive if I wanted to adapt it to sprinting and also doesn't have quite the following for parts and advice that the MX5 does.

[Simon Mason]

Fundamenatly tyres are the guide for whether a car is good for learning or not IMHO. Most cars these days have far to much grip allowing people to drive very poorly but get away with it, so why change! Even a Caterham is a very easy car to drive badly with CR500's on or worse still Yoko 0048's (you can do anything you like with those things on in the dry) but stick the thing on decent brand but normal road tyres and you'll soon find out how poor the driving really was. I must stress however that crap road tyres are dangeriously bad, you need good brands still.

[DiscoColin]

The answer to the original question is probably a 911 of some kind (particularly those predating traction and stability control) as IMHO they require a lot of knowledge to drive well and once you start to get the hang of it most other cars are comparatively easier. Personally I feel that I learn something every time on track in mine and don't think a time will ever come when I know all that I need to.. However - they are most certainly not anything like cheap to track.

In general, a more physical car that doesn't really do anything for you is going to teach you the most though, so a Caterham, E30 beamer or early MX5 is where I would say the best value is to be had, If you are FWD biased, a Mk2 Golf or 1.9 205 GTi is the direction to look.

Just MHO though.

[Birdthom]

Buy anything RWD with knackered rear ball joints - you'll soon learn to be smooth.

[Ducade]

Mk1 or Mk2 MX5

Perfect chassis balance, good motor, great gearchange.

Loads around.

Cheap, great handling, reliable, light (cheap on consumables), and simple to repair if anything breaks.

Good race series if you want to go race.

Also comfy enough to drive there and back.

Edited by Ducade on Friday 17th April 22:21

[Chris71]

Ducade said:

Mk1 or Mk2 MX5 ... Good race series if you want to go race.

That's a good point. I'm not sure I could afford to race, but something which would fit into a competitive class for local club sprints or even autotests would be good.

Going back to the other point, (in theory) a 911 sounds ideal. I've never really lusted after one as a road car, but the challenge it presents as a track car sounds quite exciting. I don't think there's any way I could afford to run one though. One, vaguely related thought that did occur was a 968 CS. I'm a big fan of the front engined Porsches, but I've always found them a touch clinical, maybe the legendary Club Sport would be more lively? I suppose though you end up back with competent front engined RWD dynamics which you could get for a lot less with an MX5?