TUITION - Is it difficult to digest or is it just me?
Discussion
I have had what amounts to about 3 X days of track tuition do date and have found an instructor that fits the bill and will from now on only employ his services.
The problem I seem to be experiencing is that no matter how hard I try to do as I am instructed, I just can't seem to move forward. The harder I try, the more lacklustre my performance seems to be. I think it may have something to do with me being 44 years old and not having had anyone trying to teach me anything for over 25 years! ( apart from my bike test over 7 years ago, and I failed that twice! ).
I am hoping that the information gleaned can be put into practice once back on track and I am in my comfort zone and do not feel pressured ( only pressure that I put myself under you understand )
The problem I seem to be experiencing is that no matter how hard I try to do as I am instructed, I just can't seem to move forward. The harder I try, the more lacklustre my performance seems to be. I think it may have something to do with me being 44 years old and not having had anyone trying to teach me anything for over 25 years! ( apart from my bike test over 7 years ago, and I failed that twice! ).
I am hoping that the information gleaned can be put into practice once back on track and I am in my comfort zone and do not feel pressured ( only pressure that I put myself under you understand )
What car are you driving?
If it's something fairly fast you may find it's best to get a car with similar basic handling characteristics but much less grip, and get used to how the car feels and responds around the limit. Balancing the car and feeling how it is responding is a physical skill just like any other sport, and it is easier to take it is in small steps rather than jump in at the deep end.
If it's something fairly fast you may find it's best to get a car with similar basic handling characteristics but much less grip, and get used to how the car feels and responds around the limit. Balancing the car and feeling how it is responding is a physical skill just like any other sport, and it is easier to take it is in small steps rather than jump in at the deep end.
^^^ I am using an e36 M3 3.0ltr.
It is fairly tracked up with coilovers, A.P.'s + other mods.
Funnily enough I did a day at Silverstone ( well half a day actually as it rained so heavily I went home early ) on Friday last and my instructor said that my tyres were s
te but that was no bad thing as it would make me have to balance the car more as a result and the tyres would not be able to support/hide my lack of ability.
It is fairly tracked up with coilovers, A.P.'s + other mods.
Funnily enough I did a day at Silverstone ( well half a day actually as it rained so heavily I went home early ) on Friday last and my instructor said that my tyres were s
te but that was no bad thing as it would make me have to balance the car more as a result and the tyres would not be able to support/hide my lack of ability. You don't say whether you have much track experience but it may well be that you are just trying to do too much at once. You were probably right in your first post, for every day you do with an instructor you may want to do a couple of other days getting comfortable with what you have been taught before you are ready to move on.
Unfortunately some people just find it harder to change their driving style and take instruction than others
Steve H
Unfortunately some people just find it harder to change their driving style and take instruction than others
Steve H
You are not alone and it's not a problem. What you're having to deal with is how the communication network in the brain works, the NMDA receptors and the neurons.
When you are dealing with something new, it is very easy to overload the brain, you hear and understand all the information but can only deal with and react to a few percent of it, everything else becomes noise and you unconsciously ignore it or even if you think you have retained it, you actually haven't.
What you need is a programme to follow, with a decent instructor, at a pace that works for you.
There are lots of things to cope with. There is the physical aspect of actually driving of the car - your driving position, how you hold the wheel, how you change gear, etc. There is the "navigation" aspect - how you position the car on the track, the line you drive into / through / out of each type of corner, where you are looking when you drive, situational awareness, etc., then there is the communication level - when everything else is second nature, developing an understanding of the language of your car, how it is talking to you, how you can feel what it is telling you, pushing that little bit more, looking at moving away from "brake and change gear in a straight line and get the car settled before you turn" to something more flowing and harmonious, trail braking, using the throttle to steer etc.
There are so many fascinating things to get to grips with you cannot possibly expect to crack it all in one 20 min session with an instructor on one trackday. The thing to do is get a recommendation for a good instructor, have a couple of sessions with them to make sure you click, and then have an assessment and work on a programme of things to do.
The trick is to work on two or three areas you need to improve on. Concentrate on them until they are second nature. It might be heel and toeing, it mght be hand position, whatever. Work on it to the exclusion of all else, and those neurons and receptors will join up and you will find that you'll go out for a session and your brain is suddenly not thinking about brake, twist foot, blip change gear etc. - you just do it. It's suddenly easy. So your brain is like "right, give me something else" - so then you pick off the next couple of things to improve on.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey. You can do it, you just need a plan and a bit of patience. Trust me you can do it!
When you are dealing with something new, it is very easy to overload the brain, you hear and understand all the information but can only deal with and react to a few percent of it, everything else becomes noise and you unconsciously ignore it or even if you think you have retained it, you actually haven't.
What you need is a programme to follow, with a decent instructor, at a pace that works for you.
There are lots of things to cope with. There is the physical aspect of actually driving of the car - your driving position, how you hold the wheel, how you change gear, etc. There is the "navigation" aspect - how you position the car on the track, the line you drive into / through / out of each type of corner, where you are looking when you drive, situational awareness, etc., then there is the communication level - when everything else is second nature, developing an understanding of the language of your car, how it is talking to you, how you can feel what it is telling you, pushing that little bit more, looking at moving away from "brake and change gear in a straight line and get the car settled before you turn" to something more flowing and harmonious, trail braking, using the throttle to steer etc.
There are so many fascinating things to get to grips with you cannot possibly expect to crack it all in one 20 min session with an instructor on one trackday. The thing to do is get a recommendation for a good instructor, have a couple of sessions with them to make sure you click, and then have an assessment and work on a programme of things to do.
The trick is to work on two or three areas you need to improve on. Concentrate on them until they are second nature. It might be heel and toeing, it mght be hand position, whatever. Work on it to the exclusion of all else, and those neurons and receptors will join up and you will find that you'll go out for a session and your brain is suddenly not thinking about brake, twist foot, blip change gear etc. - you just do it. It's suddenly easy. So your brain is like "right, give me something else" - so then you pick off the next couple of things to improve on.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey. You can do it, you just need a plan and a bit of patience. Trust me you can do it!
^^^ I have been doing track days for about three years now and have attended well over a dozen at a wide and varied array of recognised tracks; Goodwood, Snet, Brands, Doni, Castle Coombe, LeMans Bugatti Circuit so I do have a bit of experience and I KNOW all of what you say above to be fact but I seem to have hit a wall, so to speak.
I will not be having any more tuition until mid August either at Anglesey or Oulton Park ( as long as Mike can accommodate me ) so I guess I will just have to persevere until then. I was hoping to have taken more away with me on Friday last as I have about half a dozen TD's booked between now and when I next see Mike and feel I would have been able to exploit each day a little more had I felt good about the last bit of instruction I had been given
I will not be having any more tuition until mid August either at Anglesey or Oulton Park ( as long as Mike can accommodate me ) so I guess I will just have to persevere until then. I was hoping to have taken more away with me on Friday last as I have about half a dozen TD's booked between now and when I next see Mike and feel I would have been able to exploit each day a little more had I felt good about the last bit of instruction I had been given
If your only doing trackdays then eventually I do think that you will hit a wall. It's only logical that improvements in your driving will increase more slowly once you have more experience so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.
Your only way forward from here is to try mixing it up a bit by buying a different car, booking some trackdays in rapid succession to force the learning in, finding a safe track and driving properly balls out in the wet/overdriving in the dry or trying a different instructor and see if his style of teaching makes something click in your brain (although you lose time whilst they get to know your limits).
Or you could try getting the instructor to drive your car for a session to see what's going on without the distraction of driving.
Your only way forward from here is to try mixing it up a bit by buying a different car, booking some trackdays in rapid succession to force the learning in, finding a safe track and driving properly balls out in the wet/overdriving in the dry or trying a different instructor and see if his style of teaching makes something click in your brain (although you lose time whilst they get to know your limits).
Or you could try getting the instructor to drive your car for a session to see what's going on without the distraction of driving.
Edited by NeilC on Monday 29th June 23:15
I agree with NeilC. Try going on one of the trackdays where you drive a Boxter or MX-5 etc.
In my opinion, if you get into a "slower" car, it should give you more time to think, break, change gear, turn in etc. allowing you to relax and potentially even take the car "off limit" safe in the knowledge that you have tonnes of time to bring it back in line. Then if you take this new found confidence to the M3 perhaps you might find an improvement?
Alternatively, you could try picking your second favourite corner on a circuit and asking the Instructor chappie to help you *really* push just that one corner and see if you feel you are going around it better? (Keep your favourite corner as your favourite
corner). If you come away from a session at a circuit knowing that you nailed that corner 4 times out of 5 it might give you a mental boost?
Anyway, I kno na-thing
Good luck. let us know how you get on
-FatVik
In my opinion, if you get into a "slower" car, it should give you more time to think, break, change gear, turn in etc. allowing you to relax and potentially even take the car "off limit" safe in the knowledge that you have tonnes of time to bring it back in line. Then if you take this new found confidence to the M3 perhaps you might find an improvement?
Alternatively, you could try picking your second favourite corner on a circuit and asking the Instructor chappie to help you *really* push just that one corner and see if you feel you are going around it better? (Keep your favourite corner as your favourite
corner). If you come away from a session at a circuit knowing that you nailed that corner 4 times out of 5 it might give you a mental boost?Anyway, I kno na-thing
Good luck. let us know how you get on
-FatVik
i found that after various trackdays and a few tuiton days my driving started to get WORSE
eventually i managed to concentrate on a few basic things to learn rather than a whole host of things, which helped to sort a few basics out
BUT then this year i decided to stop trying to learn for a few months, and get back to driving naturally and see what had sunk in to my thick skull.
Surprisingly i found that i had infact learnt quite a lot
So my tip is try a day soon without instruction, and just get out there and drive with a clear head and see whats happens
eventually i managed to concentrate on a few basic things to learn rather than a whole host of things, which helped to sort a few basics out
BUT then this year i decided to stop trying to learn for a few months, and get back to driving naturally and see what had sunk in to my thick skull.
Surprisingly i found that i had infact learnt quite a lot
So my tip is try a day soon without instruction, and just get out there and drive with a clear head and see whats happens
I myself haven't improved much because of the instruction, and I usually take just a session on a new circuit. Yes I know i'm not very smooth and not consistent, but stating that doesn't make me smoother.
I think it would be better in most cases to go out with the instructor driving instead to show how that should be done. But still, different people have different driving styles. At least I still get fun out of it.
I think it would be better in most cases to go out with the instructor driving instead to show how that should be done. But still, different people have different driving styles. At least I still get fun out of it.
^^^ Thanks for all your comments men 
, I have pretty much come to the same conclusion and can relate to nearly all of the points made above. I know that driving a lesser power/able car than my M3 could possibly be beneficial by way of giving me more time to digest theory and put it into practice but to be honest, I think a good point made was that this exploit is supposed to be fun, and driving my M3 IS fun and I think that in retrospect maybe I will just go out and have as much as I can and try to get away from the idea that I need to become some kind of Schumacker ( the quicker one,
obviously!
) to have even more fun.
On a separate note, sort of, I will be @ Goodwood on 3.7.09 in my 650bhp Ultima ( I have only covered 500 mls in the last 2.5 years, and this will be first time on track
) so that will be another learning curve to master I do not intend to track the car on a regular basis but have yearned to get the car out and used since inception so it will be a big day for me.
, I have pretty much come to the same conclusion and can relate to nearly all of the points made above. I know that driving a lesser power/able car than my M3 could possibly be beneficial by way of giving me more time to digest theory and put it into practice but to be honest, I think a good point made was that this exploit is supposed to be fun, and driving my M3 IS fun and I think that in retrospect maybe I will just go out and have as much as I can and try to get away from the idea that I need to become some kind of Schumacker ( the quicker one,obviously!
) to have even more fun.On a separate note, sort of, I will be @ Goodwood on 3.7.09 in my 650bhp Ultima ( I have only covered 500 mls in the last 2.5 years, and this will be first time on track
) so that will be another learning curve to master I do not intend to track the car on a regular basis but have yearned to get the car out and used since inception so it will be a big day for me. Wayne, to be fair you are probably a lot better driver than you give yourself credit for. If your instructor is criticising you it is probably because you are at a stage where you are able to see how far off professional standard driving you are. The fact is that most people (including me) are not even at the stage where they realise how far off that benchmark they really are.
^^^ Fair point. For a while I did not give myself the credit that I possibly deserve but it does get to a point when you can just 'feel' that you are going well and consistently but being an Englishman, I am typically reticent to give myself praise
As I said above, I have 4 X TD's booked this month and then hope to have another day of instruction mid August so I plan to just relax and enjoy myself again, get back to basics so to speak, things are starting to get more serious than I am happy with or ready for just yet.
As I said above, I have 4 X TD's booked this month and then hope to have another day of instruction mid August so I plan to just relax and enjoy myself again, get back to basics so to speak, things are starting to get more serious than I am happy with or ready for just yet.
It depends whether you are working on braking points and lines or car control. For the latter I have found sessions at Carlimits really useful for developing feel, i.e weight transfer, feedback and when and how to use the controls. As there is plenty of room to make mistakes you can relax and concentrate on learning without having to worry about avoiding crash barriers and gravel traps. You can work on a particular technique until it starts to sink in at an instinctive level before you then move on to the next layer.
Edited by Toltec on Tuesday 30th June 23:02
GTWayne said:
^^^ Fair point. For a while I did not give myself the credit that I possibly deserve but it does get to a point when you can just 'feel' that you are going well and consistently but being an Englishman, I am typically reticent to give myself praise
As I said above, I have 4 X TD's booked this month and then hope to have another day of instruction mid August so I plan to just relax and enjoy myself again, get back to basics so to speak, things are starting to get more serious than I am happy with or ready for just yet.
Where and when are your four trackdays??? If I am around on any of them, I would quite happily sit with you for a few laps, and give you an honest appraisal of your driving techniques, ability, etc and help you identify where if anything, you could improve. The offer is there.....As I said above, I have 4 X TD's booked this month and then hope to have another day of instruction mid August so I plan to just relax and enjoy myself again, get back to basics so to speak, things are starting to get more serious than I am happy with or ready for just yet.
HTH Howard
go on one of Don Palmer's limit handling courses. He has a neuro linguistic programming (NLP) approach to teaching people, and rather than 'instruct' them, he helps you understand what's going on and make the decisions for yourself, rather than be 'told'.
www.donpalmer.com Not cheap 1:1 but very useful
www.donpalmer.com Not cheap 1:1 but very useful
ginettajoe said:
...Where and when are your four trackdays???...
Goodwood -3.7.09Brands Hatch - 8.7.09
Silverstone GP - 14.7.09
Goodwood - 24.7.09
ginettajoe said:
If I am around on any of them, I would quite happily sit with you for a few laps, and give you an honest appraisal of your driving techniques, ability, etc and help you identify where if anything, you could improve. The offer is there.....
HTH Howard
Thanks, that is a very kind offer but I am not so much struggling with where I am at the moment, more finding it a problem listening to those who know better and putting it into practice.HTH Howard
If you are indeed at hand on any of the above dates I would be interested to talk in more detail for sure
fergus said:
go on one of Don Palmer's limit handling courses. He has a neuro linguistic programming (NLP) approach to teaching people, and rather than 'instruct' them, he helps you understand what's going on and make the decisions for yourself, rather than be 'told'.
www.donpalmer.com Not cheap 1:1 but very useful
www.donpalmer.co.ukwww.donpalmer.com Not cheap 1:1 but very useful
I did one car control day with him and learnt a lot.
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