BMW 330Ci as track car?
Discussion
Hi all,
Thinking about getting a new car. Only have the pleasure of doing about 2-3 track days a year, so most of the time the car has to be used to get me to work and on weekends. Dont want something that is going to set me back too much over £7000 and has to be reasonably insurance, tax etc friendly. Thinking the 330 fits the bill nicely, looks ok, goes well, and plenty of suspension options etc, just wondering if your seasoned minds can think of any alternatives?
Cheers,
Dan
Thinking about getting a new car. Only have the pleasure of doing about 2-3 track days a year, so most of the time the car has to be used to get me to work and on weekends. Dont want something that is going to set me back too much over £7000 and has to be reasonably insurance, tax etc friendly. Thinking the 330 fits the bill nicely, looks ok, goes well, and plenty of suspension options etc, just wondering if your seasoned minds can think of any alternatives?
Cheers,
Dan
i'm obviously going to sound biased here, but I honestly think you'd be better off getting the road car you want and budgeting the money to rent something for the 2-3 track days a year. split with a mate, the cost of renting a track car (caterham or elise etc) is going to be around £500/day each and there's no way you could run the 330 on track days for as little as that - and that's assuming you neither insure or crash it.
i've been round the houses a million times and have more spreadsheets on this topic than any one man should have, trust me!
caveat - depends how you drive the 330i though - i'm kind of assuming you're going to want to lean on it a bit.
Jonny
BaT
i've been round the houses a million times and have more spreadsheets on this topic than any one man should have, trust me!
caveat - depends how you drive the 330i though - i'm kind of assuming you're going to want to lean on it a bit.
Jonny
BaT
Cheers for the advice guys. Boxster...hmmm, no. Sorry but its a car ive always hated. lol. and the main advantage of the bmw is that it has 4 useable seats sorry cant really go 2 seater, otherwise i'd probably get an MX5 or save a bit more an get an S2000. I know it sounds silly but if I sell my Meg F1 i'll save around £200 per month. I did think about just renting a car for track days, but tbh that not what track are about for me. I enjoy taking my own car as it gives you the oppertunity to learn more about the car and do with it, what you cant on the road.
Cheers again
Dan
Cheers again
Dan
Edited by DanTVR on Wednesday 31st March 19:22
I've tried to run a single car for road and track days, but after the first track day I seriously regretted even attempting that - and that's not because I binned the car!
There are several problems you are likely encounter with tracking your daily drive:
- The suspension and brakes are set up for the road, so they won't be very good on track
- You'll be bouncing through corners and the car will feel like a boat
- The brakes would cook after the first 20 minutes, you'll get that familiar burning smell and spongey paddle
- If it's a vaguely modern German car it'll throw up all sorts of warnings
- Then you end up taking it very easy for the rest of the day
...which defeats the purpose in the first place, and makes you think that your car is rubbish - which it isn't; it's just set up for road comfort rather than track driving!
If you then compensate by changing the suspension for coil-overs, dialing in negative camber and putting race/fast-road pads on etc., and the car becomes unbearably harsh on the road...again making you regret your decision every time you go over a speed bump!
My advice is - get the road car you want (if it's the 330, then it's an awesome choice btw)...and get an older sibling of it (say, an E36 328) for a grand or two at most. At that point you get the refinement of a German car, with a dedicated toy that mirrors what you have (roughly, albeit a decade older) to learn how to drive BMWs "properly" on track!
Just my 2-pennies' worth...
There are several problems you are likely encounter with tracking your daily drive:
- The suspension and brakes are set up for the road, so they won't be very good on track
- You'll be bouncing through corners and the car will feel like a boat
- The brakes would cook after the first 20 minutes, you'll get that familiar burning smell and spongey paddle
- If it's a vaguely modern German car it'll throw up all sorts of warnings
- Then you end up taking it very easy for the rest of the day
...which defeats the purpose in the first place, and makes you think that your car is rubbish - which it isn't; it's just set up for road comfort rather than track driving!
If you then compensate by changing the suspension for coil-overs, dialing in negative camber and putting race/fast-road pads on etc., and the car becomes unbearably harsh on the road...again making you regret your decision every time you go over a speed bump!
My advice is - get the road car you want (if it's the 330, then it's an awesome choice btw)...and get an older sibling of it (say, an E36 328) for a grand or two at most. At that point you get the refinement of a German car, with a dedicated toy that mirrors what you have (roughly, albeit a decade older) to learn how to drive BMWs "properly" on track!
Just my 2-pennies' worth...
A.Wang said:
I've tried to run a single car for road and track days, but after the first track day I seriously regretted even attempting that - and that's not because I binned the car!
There are several problems you are likely encounter with tracking your daily drive:
- The suspension and brakes are set up for the road, so they won't be very good on track
- You'll be bouncing through corners and the car will feel like a boat
- The brakes would cook after the first 20 minutes, you'll get that familiar burning smell and spongey paddle
- If it's a vaguely modern German car it'll throw up all sorts of warnings
- Then you end up taking it very easy for the rest of the day
...which defeats the purpose in the first place, and makes you think that your car is rubbish - which it isn't; it's just set up for road comfort rather than track driving!
If you then compensate by changing the suspension for coil-overs, dialing in negative camber and putting race/fast-road pads on etc., and the car becomes unbearably harsh on the road...again making you regret your decision every time you go over a speed bump!
My advice is - get the road car you want (if it's the 330, then it's an awesome choice btw)...and get an older sibling of it (say, an E36 328) for a grand or two at most. At that point you get the refinement of a German car, with a dedicated toy that mirrors what you have (roughly, albeit a decade older) to learn how to drive BMWs "properly" on track!
Just my 2-pennies' worth...
I'd agree with that.There are several problems you are likely encounter with tracking your daily drive:
- The suspension and brakes are set up for the road, so they won't be very good on track
- You'll be bouncing through corners and the car will feel like a boat
- The brakes would cook after the first 20 minutes, you'll get that familiar burning smell and spongey paddle
- If it's a vaguely modern German car it'll throw up all sorts of warnings
- Then you end up taking it very easy for the rest of the day
...which defeats the purpose in the first place, and makes you think that your car is rubbish - which it isn't; it's just set up for road comfort rather than track driving!
If you then compensate by changing the suspension for coil-overs, dialing in negative camber and putting race/fast-road pads on etc., and the car becomes unbearably harsh on the road...again making you regret your decision every time you go over a speed bump!
My advice is - get the road car you want (if it's the 330, then it's an awesome choice btw)...and get an older sibling of it (say, an E36 328) for a grand or two at most. At that point you get the refinement of a German car, with a dedicated toy that mirrors what you have (roughly, albeit a decade older) to learn how to drive BMWs "properly" on track!
Just my 2-pennies' worth...
A.Wang said:
it's just set up for road comfort rather than track driving!
If you then compensate by changing the suspension for coil-overs, dialing in negative camber and putting race/fast-road pads on etc., and the car becomes unbearably harsh on the road...again making you regret your decision every time you go over a speed bump!
I wouldn't necessarily advocate trying to run one car for both purposes either - I've not managed it successfully either.If you then compensate by changing the suspension for coil-overs, dialing in negative camber and putting race/fast-road pads on etc., and the car becomes unbearably harsh on the road...again making you regret your decision every time you go over a speed bump!
But - with CAREFUL modifications you can achieve trackable dynamics without losing all your ride comfort.
I'd suggest:
- adjustable coilovers, but not with stupidly stiff springs - they're usually supplied way too stiff
- progressive springs - H&R or Eibach, for example
- adjustable anti-roll bars
- good discs and pads, a caliper upgrade if you can swing it
- track legal tyres on a separate set of rims, the lighter the better, and no bigger than you need to clear the front brakes
- most 90s BMWs could use the gear linkage and steering rack from a Z3 to good effect, mods like that from other models don't affect the driveability on your commute but are noticeably better on track
Adjustable coilovers are fine on the road, as long as you don't follow the "stiffer is faster" approach that many people seem to expect. Using stiffer ARBs means you can soften off the spring rates and still have ride comfort without massive roll on track.
If you can bear it, be prepared to spend an hour at the start and end of the trackday prepping your car. Wheels swapped, dampers adjusted up a couple of notches, 4 bolts each side to set the camber if you get that sort of kit.
If you don't make those changes, you'll get hacked off driving the car every day for the sake of the occasions where it comes into its own on track.
In that case, get a E30 325i 4dr, they're cheap and light and fun and won't use up the tyres and pads and discs as fast as anything newer.
FWIW I have a E36 328i Sport and wouldn't even consider using it on the track. It's too heavy and lacks the ultimate poise that a track car ought to have.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I haven't used coilovers specced for a BMW. Certainly ones on Japanese cars are way too stiff.If I was starting off with a car to track (and throw a lot of money and time at) I wouldn't start with a 328i, whilst appreciating that if you were to choose one to modify it could end up pretty entertaining.
I don't know nearly enough about E30/E36/E46 BMWs to make any informed recommendations, only that someone I know who had a lot of fun with an E36 328i last year with minimal outlays (in fairness, he admitted that he got big bits like bucket seats, coil-over kits and brake discs off eBay)...
Another bit of health warning I should attach to dedicated track toys is that they end up costing more than you'd expect...if you have a wife/girlfriend/secret lover/kid, they might not be going on holiday abroad for a few years!
As I don't know what the OP's track day experiences are, I'd suggest making sure it's a hobby for you first - buying a dedicated track day car is a fairly big commitment, and you'll want to do it "right" the first time. Don't go down my route of buying a cheap-ish prepared car for £750 (it's cheap for a reason) and end up dropping twice that on making it actually track-worthy, only to decide that it's still a bit of a boat and chopping it for a fresh grounds-up build with a different car (by another manufacturer).
Another bit of health warning I should attach to dedicated track toys is that they end up costing more than you'd expect...if you have a wife/girlfriend/secret lover/kid, they might not be going on holiday abroad for a few years!
As I don't know what the OP's track day experiences are, I'd suggest making sure it's a hobby for you first - buying a dedicated track day car is a fairly big commitment, and you'll want to do it "right" the first time. Don't go down my route of buying a cheap-ish prepared car for £750 (it's cheap for a reason) and end up dropping twice that on making it actually track-worthy, only to decide that it's still a bit of a boat and chopping it for a fresh grounds-up build with a different car (by another manufacturer).
I'd say for two track days a year it doesn't really matter - get what you want as a road car and then providing it's not a long wheelbase S-Class or something you'll have fun on the track regardless.
If you want to do more I can only echo the above comments: get something light, cheap to maintain and safe for noise limits like a Caterham or one of the better kits.
Have you thought about running two cars? I know this is kind of a stock response, but depening on your circumstances it can make sense. Using specialist insurance, pre-2001 road tax and a bit of elbow grease (or for that matter cheap independent garages) you can run a comfy road car for the week and something more exciting for evenings and weekends. That way you won't be frustrated by a big heavy car on the perfect B-road (or track) and you won't have to compromise on space, comfort etc. on the way to work. I reckon you could buy something like a Fisher Fury and an E36 3-Series for £7k and run both of them for less than the price of running an M3, for example.
If you want to do more I can only echo the above comments: get something light, cheap to maintain and safe for noise limits like a Caterham or one of the better kits.
Have you thought about running two cars? I know this is kind of a stock response, but depening on your circumstances it can make sense. Using specialist insurance, pre-2001 road tax and a bit of elbow grease (or for that matter cheap independent garages) you can run a comfy road car for the week and something more exciting for evenings and weekends. That way you won't be frustrated by a big heavy car on the perfect B-road (or track) and you won't have to compromise on space, comfort etc. on the way to work. I reckon you could buy something like a Fisher Fury and an E36 3-Series for £7k and run both of them for less than the price of running an M3, for example.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
A lot of money, in context. £2k of mods on a £2k car is a lot of money. £2k of mods on a £10k car isn't.Like I said, I'd start with a E30 325i because it's cheaper, lighter, simpler to work on, easier on its consumables. For the same power to weight, you get a more nimble car that costs less to prepare and run.
But I agree, at this end of the market you're best to get one that someone else has done the hard work on.
For the OP, you can improve your 330Ci without making it a bind in normal use, but go easy on the trackday mods. For the sake of a few days per year, even just uprating the ARBs will pay for itself in reducing tyre wear and give you a nicer handling car all year without compromising ride comfort.
But a standard spec car will feel wallowy and soft and roll a lot on track, so use the trackday use to justify sensible mods to help on that front.
Cheers for all the advice guys. The main reason a dont want 2 cars is the space and the running costs. As said I could run an M3 on the cost of running a track car and a road car, which I would rather do. As said personally I dont feel I will get enough use out of 2 cars either as the mortgage etc comes before track time.
Also the Mrs said if I can afford to run a track car then I can afford for her not to work. LOL. All the ideas suggested is what I was thinking, 330ci, adjustable suspension, stiffer arb's, brake upgrade, separate set of wheels. I realise that it will be heavy on tyres and brakes but for only 2-3 track days a year, its a cost that can be managed. It seems the general concensus is a 330, with a few tweaks, can be fun on track and usebale day to day. My main question now is, should I do this or keep my current car? If I get the BMW i'll be saving somwhere in the region of £200 per month. What do y'all reckon? (see profile for pic of car)
Dan
Also the Mrs said if I can afford to run a track car then I can afford for her not to work. LOL. All the ideas suggested is what I was thinking, 330ci, adjustable suspension, stiffer arb's, brake upgrade, separate set of wheels. I realise that it will be heavy on tyres and brakes but for only 2-3 track days a year, its a cost that can be managed. It seems the general concensus is a 330, with a few tweaks, can be fun on track and usebale day to day. My main question now is, should I do this or keep my current car? If I get the BMW i'll be saving somwhere in the region of £200 per month. What do y'all reckon? (see profile for pic of car)
Dan
how long do you intend to keep the car for? (X years)
what is the total cost of the upgrades? (£Y)
number of track days per year = Z
assume value of upgrades when you come to sell the car = Y x 50% (being generous).
therefore, by modifying your BMW, the cost per track day has just increased by (0.5 x Y) ÷ (X x Z)
seriously, for 2-3 track days a year I wouldn't even consider modifying the car.
Jonny
BaT
what is the total cost of the upgrades? (£Y)
number of track days per year = Z
assume value of upgrades when you come to sell the car = Y x 50% (being generous).
therefore, by modifying your BMW, the cost per track day has just increased by (0.5 x Y) ÷ (X x Z)
seriously, for 2-3 track days a year I wouldn't even consider modifying the car.
Jonny
BaT
i love it when newish cars are used for trackdays / competitions etc.
Whilst drift cars do differ slightly from track day cars (though not as much as a lot of people think) i thought i'd post this to perhapse inspire a bit. Despite the pistonheads general comunity not really liking drifting.
Because this is one the blog my fave cars in the whole wide world, and if i had 10k to spend on a car, i dare say you would struggle to have as much fun as in a car like this...
http://andysapp.com/?cat=8 - his blog also covers some of the problems he's come accross, including the infamous, bmw's that pull their diffs from the boot floors problem. Theres quite a lot of bunff to do with his work/other hobbies/rednecking / being a skateboardist on his full blog so this is the filtered bmw blog. Also worth checking the other pages at the top, particularly http://andysapp.com/car.php
http://www.vimeo.com/3949193 - plenty more on vimeo/youtube.
I love the whole modern car with bucket seats/rollcage/semi stripped interior thing! Plus, look at how much fun to drive it looks, its only a American spec 325, which i think means 170bhp, and it doesn't have many engine modifications!
Whilst drift cars do differ slightly from track day cars (though not as much as a lot of people think) i thought i'd post this to perhapse inspire a bit. Despite the pistonheads general comunity not really liking drifting.
Because this is one the blog my fave cars in the whole wide world, and if i had 10k to spend on a car, i dare say you would struggle to have as much fun as in a car like this...
http://andysapp.com/?cat=8 - his blog also covers some of the problems he's come accross, including the infamous, bmw's that pull their diffs from the boot floors problem. Theres quite a lot of bunff to do with his work/other hobbies/rednecking / being a skateboardist on his full blog so this is the filtered bmw blog. Also worth checking the other pages at the top, particularly http://andysapp.com/car.php
http://www.vimeo.com/3949193 - plenty more on vimeo/youtube.
I love the whole modern car with bucket seats/rollcage/semi stripped interior thing! Plus, look at how much fun to drive it looks, its only a American spec 325, which i think means 170bhp, and it doesn't have many engine modifications!
Edited by bigfatnick on Wednesday 8th July 00:58
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