Discussion
My nephew wants to buy a track-day car which he wil not have to register for the road as he will trailer it to the circuits. He only has a budget of £1000 max to buy the car then he will strip it out and add some suspension and brake mods.
So, the question is, for his budget, what makes the best track-day car that will be as fast round the track for his cash and wont cost him an arm and a led to repair ?
Your suggestions would be appreciated.
So, the question is, for his budget, what makes the best track-day car that will be as fast round the track for his cash and wont cost him an arm and a led to repair ?
Your suggestions would be appreciated.
The citroen AX GT or Pug 106 Rallye are always a good place to start.
I began with a saxo VTS, which has masses of aftermarket parts available.
Friend of mine began with an XR2 - that was actually very good once it had a few quid thrown at it.
But tbh if I was to start again i'd go with the AX, youll find a few with the VTS engine transplant already done - and that makes for a quick motor.
I began with a saxo VTS, which has masses of aftermarket parts available.
Friend of mine began with an XR2 - that was actually very good once it had a few quid thrown at it.
But tbh if I was to start again i'd go with the AX, youll find a few with the VTS engine transplant already done - and that makes for a quick motor.
I have a fairly well sorted and prepared e36 M3 but whilst at Silverstone last week using slicks has caused oil starvation and spun a bearing so it is game over for now until I can get the time to fit my spare motor. I have a track day coming up on 24.7.09 but with no car to do it with?
I have found what looks like a very cheap but usable 325i saloon that comes with an LSD and my point is this; I have done over a dozen track days now and because it is the mechanical side of the car that I enjoy as much as the driving ( more so in the early days ), I started with a more capable car than I had the ability to exploit right from the start but find that as a result am using the superior dynamics of my current ride to flatter my ability and have been advised by my instructor that going down to a lower spec lesser powered car could well be the way forward.
BMW's are fabulous cars to use at entry level and although the RWD Vs RWD argument will no doubt rage on forever more, it really boils down to what you prefer/get on with although the only thing I would say is that RWD biased folk rarely change to FWD but not always the other way round? But whatever, to answer your question, go the BMW route, you can certainly not go wrong and even if you should find that to be the wrong decision, you will indeed have little problem moving the car on, good luck
I have found what looks like a very cheap but usable 325i saloon that comes with an LSD and my point is this; I have done over a dozen track days now and because it is the mechanical side of the car that I enjoy as much as the driving ( more so in the early days ), I started with a more capable car than I had the ability to exploit right from the start but find that as a result am using the superior dynamics of my current ride to flatter my ability and have been advised by my instructor that going down to a lower spec lesser powered car could well be the way forward.
BMW's are fabulous cars to use at entry level and although the RWD Vs RWD argument will no doubt rage on forever more, it really boils down to what you prefer/get on with although the only thing I would say is that RWD biased folk rarely change to FWD but not always the other way round? But whatever, to answer your question, go the BMW route, you can certainly not go wrong and even if you should find that to be the wrong decision, you will indeed have little problem moving the car on, good luck
GTWayne said:
I have a fairly well sorted and prepared e36 M3 but whilst at Silverstone last week using slicks has caused oil starvation and spun a bearing so it is game over for now until I can get the time to fit my spare motor. I have a track day coming up on 24.7.09 but with no car to do it with?
I have found what looks like a very cheap but usable 325i saloon that comes with an LSD and my point is this; I have done over a dozen track days now and because it is the mechanical side of the car that I enjoy as much as the driving ( more so in the early days ), I started with a more capable car than I had the ability to exploit right from the start but find that as a result am using the superior dynamics of my current ride to flatter my ability and have been advised by my instructor that going down to a lower spec lesser powered car could well be the way forward.
BMW's are fabulous cars to use at entry level and although the RWD Vs RWD argument will no doubt rage on forever more, it really boils down to what you prefer/get on with although the only thing I would say is that RWD biased folk rarely change to FWD but not always the other way round? But whatever, to answer your question, go the BMW route, you can certainly not go wrong and even if you should find that to be the wrong decision, you will indeed have little problem moving the car on, good luck
I will say this.I have found what looks like a very cheap but usable 325i saloon that comes with an LSD and my point is this; I have done over a dozen track days now and because it is the mechanical side of the car that I enjoy as much as the driving ( more so in the early days ), I started with a more capable car than I had the ability to exploit right from the start but find that as a result am using the superior dynamics of my current ride to flatter my ability and have been advised by my instructor that going down to a lower spec lesser powered car could well be the way forward.
BMW's are fabulous cars to use at entry level and although the RWD Vs RWD argument will no doubt rage on forever more, it really boils down to what you prefer/get on with although the only thing I would say is that RWD biased folk rarely change to FWD but not always the other way round? But whatever, to answer your question, go the BMW route, you can certainly not go wrong and even if you should find that to be the wrong decision, you will indeed have little problem moving the car on, good luck
It has cost a lot more to prep' the Beemer than it ever did to prep' the Golfs I have done and it has taken more time and more hard work.
Performance parts for the Golf were cheaper and I needed less of them, also the prep' work was simpler and better for a beginner as well as being much quicker for an experienced person like myself.
If I'm honest the E30 was (and still is) a bit of a chore compared to the Golfs.
All this extra effort and the Golf was still quicker and more fun, the Beemer may be RWD (which is ace) but that isn't enough on it's own.
clarki said:
The citroen AX GT or Pug 106 Rallye are always a good place to start
...
But tbh if I was to start again i'd go with the AX, youll find a few with the VTS engine transplant already done - and that makes for a quick motor.
...with the structural integrity of a cardboard box covered with tin foil - it is quick because it is light because there isn't a lot of metal in it. Unless you are also budgeting to have a full cage welded in this seems a really bad idea for even a starter track car to me - especially if the budget can be made to bring a Golf or Beamer into the equation....
But tbh if I was to start again i'd go with the AX, youll find a few with the VTS engine transplant already done - and that makes for a quick motor.
^^^^^^^^ Seriously mate, I can't be bothered to type it all out here but having done back to back builds I can truly and without prejudice say that the Golf was cheaper and easier to build and faster and more fun when finished.
Im' no fanboy of any make, just giving the honest facts to the OP from my experience. You can argue all you like but this was the case and if I had to choose I would take the Golf and this is what I would recomend to the OP. Whereas you seem fixated on Beemers.
Im' no fanboy of any make, just giving the honest facts to the OP from my experience. You can argue all you like but this was the case and if I had to choose I would take the Golf and this is what I would recomend to the OP. Whereas you seem fixated on Beemers.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I knew exactly what I was doing, I bought a 320i as it was £300 taxed tested and rust free and I can get a 325i engine and ancillaries to fit for £250. Total cost £550, most 325's are around a £1000 so £450 saved.
O.K lets look at the suspension prep of a MK3 Golf VS an E30. Considering fitting Coilovers, Polybushes and setting it up to a resonable level.
The Coilovers and and polybushes will cost about the same maybe £50-100 saved on the Golf as there are fewer bushes at the rear.
First problem. With the Golf you just order the coilovers, they turn up 3 days later to be fitted. With the E30 all the manufacturers I spoke to insisted I either paid around a £300 deposit or supplied my own front struts, as I didn't have £300 handy my E30 was on blocks for 5 weeks with no suspension waiting for the coilovers to be made, this has cost me money in wasted tax and insurance and wasted my time. Or you could buy front struts from a scrappy to send away but this would cost more money.
So then the coilovers and bushes are fitted to both cars, the E30 is already 4-5 weeks behind or I'm out of pocket by another £50 compared to the Golf (depending on what I do about the struts)
Second Problem. With Golf to set-up the front you simply fit the coilovers and adjust the tracking and camber to how you want it, at the rear the beam is fixed and moves in one plain so you keep the standard camber and tow even though it has been lowered which are fine for the track you can get camber/toe adjusters for about £60 (though you don't need them). On the E30 though there is no Camber adjustment at the front so you have to buy adjustable top-mounts (or make your own which I don't know if the OP can) so an extra £200, then at the rear because it is lower the trailig arms set the Camber and tow all over the place so you have to remove and modify the rear beam for adjustment and the cheapest I could find the parts to do this was £100(ish) (£200 if the welding is already done) so another £100 to £200 out of pocket with loads of extra work.
Oh and you also have adjustable front caster on the Golf but not on the Beemer so more money if you want that.
So for the suspension on E30 compared to Golf it will take longer, require more complicated work (the rear beam in particular) and cost in the region of £300-£600 extra to build the E30 with the same equality parts and adjustability.
I have the reciepts for the two builds if you would like to pop round and check.
The rest of the car is fairly similar although the interior work was quicker on the Golf, the Beemer is better in some area like quicker steering racks from other BM's will fit and cooling is easier to deal with.
There you go, don't be so doubting next time.
Edited by T89 Callan on Sunday 19th July 14:40
T89 Callan said:
teabagger said:
a stripped e30 or e36 bmw is the way to go.
understeer on track is boring. rear wheel drive all the way!
Have you driven a Golf on Track?understeer on track is boring. rear wheel drive all the way!
PistonHeads.com - Stereotypes matter.
Edited by T89 Callan on Sunday 19th July 11:06
Front wheel drive is great for the shopping run, rear wheel drive is great for real driving.
teabagger said:
T89 Callan said:
teabagger said:
a stripped e30 or e36 bmw is the way to go.
understeer on track is boring. rear wheel drive all the way!
Have you driven a Golf on Track?understeer on track is boring. rear wheel drive all the way!
PistonHeads.com - Stereotypes matter.
Edited by T89 Callan on Sunday 19th July 11:06
Front wheel drive is great for the shopping run, rear wheel drive is great for real driving.
Really
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You have to send the struts off as the front hubs are part of the strut on an E30 (and E36 I believe) they won't manufacture a whole new hub wen they provide struts. Maybe you have £1500+ to spend on Coilovers but many of us don't and at below that price range this is the reality of the situation.Sadly some of us have to build our cars on a tight budget.
one last question: Exactly how do your reversed M3 evo top mounts give you adjustable caster and camber???? Oh wait they don't.
If you think I'm overcomplicating the issue then you really have no idea.
DiscoColin said:
clarki said:
The citroen AX GT or Pug 106 Rallye are always a good place to start
...
But tbh if I was to start again i'd go with the AX, youll find a few with the VTS engine transplant already done - and that makes for a quick motor.
...with the structural integrity of a cardboard box covered with tin foil - it is quick because it is light because there isn't a lot of metal in it. Unless you are also budgeting to have a full cage welded in this seems a really bad idea for even a starter track car to me - especially if the budget can be made to bring a Golf or Beamer into the equation....
But tbh if I was to start again i'd go with the AX, youll find a few with the VTS engine transplant already done - and that makes for a quick motor.
or a..... Saxo VTS ...
I've currently got a 328i Sport & am on e36coupe.com so know all about the various cheap bits & bobs available for them - my car has literally been perfected via ebay lol.
However, mine is going to be replaced by a 106 gti/Saxo vts in the near future. Yes, RWD would be much preferable & the e36 would undoutedly be faster than the french tin can, track prep would be similar cost wise after running all the numbers.
But its much higher weight will no doubt mean higher consumption of consumables. Tyres are £100 a corner (saxo = £40), front discs/pads are £200 for decent ones (saxo = £70), fuel will be more, insurance is more, the list goes on and on.
Oh, and the e36 wont fit in my garage ...
I've currently got a 328i Sport & am on e36coupe.com so know all about the various cheap bits & bobs available for them - my car has literally been perfected via ebay lol.
However, mine is going to be replaced by a 106 gti/Saxo vts in the near future. Yes, RWD would be much preferable & the e36 would undoutedly be faster than the french tin can, track prep would be similar cost wise after running all the numbers.
But its much higher weight will no doubt mean higher consumption of consumables. Tyres are £100 a corner (saxo = £40), front discs/pads are £200 for decent ones (saxo = £70), fuel will be more, insurance is more, the list goes on and on.
Oh, and the e36 wont fit in my garage ...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Point one, you can't fit the the hub mount yourself, It is part of the strut, machined from the same peice of metal The point about the cost difference was (which I will repeat for a third time) is not that the parts cost much more for the beemer (as you keep pointing out) the coliovers are about the same price. The difference is that to get the smae adjustment and parts to fit you have to buy more parts like the adjustable top mounts and modify the rear axle.
Personally I have no preference I just say it like it is, based on experience. If the Beemer had been a cheaper/easier build I would have said so.
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