Learning track driving
Discussion
Just been aksed one of those 'you know about cars' type questions.
A guy at work wants to do trackdays and is wondering about doing a course or two at the Silverstone Motorsport academy to learn the basics. He even talks about doing an ARDS course just out of interest, though he CLAIMS he has no intention of going racing ;-)
His questiona are whether it's worth geting some tuition first, would an ARDS course be relevant? Or worth doing just out of interest/satisfaction? What's the best way to pick up the basics? (I don't even Heel and Toe and have never done a proper track day so I haven't a clue).
My question is, given that he is mid forties, would he be barking mad to go for an ARDS? Would he just be laughed at by hordes of 20 year olds?
A guy at work wants to do trackdays and is wondering about doing a course or two at the Silverstone Motorsport academy to learn the basics. He even talks about doing an ARDS course just out of interest, though he CLAIMS he has no intention of going racing ;-)
His questiona are whether it's worth geting some tuition first, would an ARDS course be relevant? Or worth doing just out of interest/satisfaction? What's the best way to pick up the basics? (I don't even Heel and Toe and have never done a proper track day so I haven't a clue).
My question is, given that he is mid forties, would he be barking mad to go for an ARDS? Would he just be laughed at by hordes of 20 year olds?
You wont learn anything from the ARDS test. It is simple that a test to ensure that you know what the flags mean and can prove that you are not a complete liability, some people manage to still be a liability even when they have passed.
If you what to improve your circuit driving either contact one of the ARDS instructor or take advantage of the instructors that are usually available at track days.
If you do take the ARDS test I can assure you that you probably wont be the oldest there.
If you what to improve your circuit driving either contact one of the ARDS instructor or take advantage of the instructors that are usually available at track days.
If you do take the ARDS test I can assure you that you probably wont be the oldest there.
+1 to just going and doing trackdays and pre-booking tuition. Get a couple of 20 minute slots from the organisers initially and at subsequent trackdays hire an instructor for the day (share with a friend or two to keep costs down). Best value for money go faster upgrade for your car you can buy.
Speaking in my professional capacity 
I concur with what has been said already.
The A.R.D.S. 'Course' (test) - so callede because there is some instruction involved in it - isn't really relevant to track days and the amount of instruction is minimal. In order to do it you need to spend at least £365 (Go Racing Pack from the MSA: £55, Medical: £60* (most schools won't put you through the course until you have done the medical), A.R.D.S. Course: £250* - *from), which makes it prudent to have some instruction beforehand - so you might as well just have the instruction.
Some people (you would be surprised how many) do the A.R.D.S. Course and get their race licence just for the sake of it, with no intention of racing. If that warms your toast, fine. Others seem to believe it gives them extra privileges on track days - I came across one guy recently who thought he didn't have to attend the briefing because he had a race licence! You do, whether you have a race licence or not. The only people who technically don't have to attend briefings are Grade S and Grade A Instructors - because we're qualified to present them; but in most cases we do, because there might be something different announced that's specific to the day. It is a bit pointless getting a race licence if you're not going to race, other than for your own satisfaction - not that it's a great achievement.
I would suggest getting instruction from day one! And while the £25 (or F.O.C.) 20 minute sessions provided by TDO's are better than none, 20 minutes is not long enough to learn anything properly and it is pretty basic. If you don't get proper instruction from the off, you will develop bad habits that will be difficult to rectify later, and you could make mistakes that may be costly!
As for age, don't worry about it. I've had complete novices, even starting out racing, in their 60's.
I concur with what has been said already.The A.R.D.S. 'Course' (test) - so callede because there is some instruction involved in it - isn't really relevant to track days and the amount of instruction is minimal. In order to do it you need to spend at least £365 (Go Racing Pack from the MSA: £55, Medical: £60* (most schools won't put you through the course until you have done the medical), A.R.D.S. Course: £250* - *from), which makes it prudent to have some instruction beforehand - so you might as well just have the instruction.
Some people (you would be surprised how many) do the A.R.D.S. Course and get their race licence just for the sake of it, with no intention of racing. If that warms your toast, fine. Others seem to believe it gives them extra privileges on track days - I came across one guy recently who thought he didn't have to attend the briefing because he had a race licence! You do, whether you have a race licence or not. The only people who technically don't have to attend briefings are Grade S and Grade A Instructors - because we're qualified to present them; but in most cases we do, because there might be something different announced that's specific to the day. It is a bit pointless getting a race licence if you're not going to race, other than for your own satisfaction - not that it's a great achievement.
I would suggest getting instruction from day one! And while the £25 (or F.O.C.) 20 minute sessions provided by TDO's are better than none, 20 minutes is not long enough to learn anything properly and it is pretty basic. If you don't get proper instruction from the off, you will develop bad habits that will be difficult to rectify later, and you could make mistakes that may be costly!
As for age, don't worry about it. I've had complete novices, even starting out racing, in their 60's.
Dr Jekyll said:
(I don't even Heel and Toe and have never done a proper track day so I haven't a clue).
That doesn't necessarily mean you haven't a clue.... I was actually quite surprised to find one young driver (whom I rate highly) who raced my car this year didn't heel and toe, but he does left foot brake. Whereas the regular driver of my car does heel and toe but doesn't left foot brake (though he wants to try and learn the technique in the future and decide which he prefers). Some of these things are horses for courses and if the driver is quick it doesn't really matter how they are doing it!As for the question, totally agree with what has been said above, he should spend his money on some decent time with an ARDS Licensed Instructor.
RobinSherwood said:
Dr Jekyll said:
(I don't even Heel and Toe and have never done a proper track day so I haven't a clue).
That doesn't necessarily mean you haven't a clue.... I was actually quite surprised to find one young driver (whom I rate highly) who raced my car this year didn't heel and toe, but he does left foot brake. Whereas the regular driver of my car does heel and toe but doesn't left foot brake (though he wants to try and learn the technique in the future and decide which he prefers). Some of these things are horses for courses and if the driver is quick it doesn't really matter how they are doing it!As for the question, totally agree with what has been said above, he should spend his money on some decent time with an ARDS Licensed Instructor.
Left foot braking is mostly unnecessary on a track and only any real benefit in cars that do not require the use of the clutch (cars with flappy-paddle gearboxes for example), or in a standard car when no down-change is needed, where a smooth transition from brakes to power can be achieved. However, it's not of any major benefit in circuit driving in most cars (other than for a quick dab on the pedal to remedy pad knock-off approaching a corner while still flat on the throttle).
Trail-braking is a technique that should be learned, particularly for cars with inerrant understeer (FWD mostly, but some RWD). It works by transferring weight forward onto the front tyres to get a better bite on the road, and un-weighting the rear end of the car to induce some oversteer, all to assist turn in. FWD or RWD, you need to heel and toe when trail-braking because you don't wan't a sudden extra bit of retardation from the front or lock-up at the rear caused by re-engaging the clutch on a down-change when you've got the arse-end of the car 'up in the air'.
timarnold said:
Left foot braking is mostly unnecessary on a track and only any real benefit in cars that do not require the use of the clutch (cars with flappy-paddle gearboxes for example), or in a standard car when no down-change is needed, where a smooth transition from brakes to power can be achieved. However, it's not of any major benefit in circuit driving in most cars (other than for a quick dab on the pedal to remedy pad knock-off approaching a corner while still flat on the throttle).
Trail-braking is a technique that should be learned, particularly for cars with inerrant understeer (FWD mostly, but some RWD). It works by transferring weight forward onto the front tyres to get a better bite on the road, and un-weighting the rear end of the car to induce some oversteer, all to assist turn in. FWD or RWD, you need to heel and toe when trail-braking because you don't wan't a sudden extra bit of retardation from the front or lock-up at the rear caused by re-engaging the clutch on a down-change when you've got the arse-end of the car 'up in the air'.
Having raced a clio cup car, I can assure you that left foot trail braking whilst still flat on the throttle helps quell understeer, especically at places like clearways at Brands..... I think the description of trail braking 'inducing over steer' is a bit wide of the mark. It simply aids weight transfer. That's all. It depends on the slip angle of the tyres plus the rear geo as to whether over steer results...Trail-braking is a technique that should be learned, particularly for cars with inerrant understeer (FWD mostly, but some RWD). It works by transferring weight forward onto the front tyres to get a better bite on the road, and un-weighting the rear end of the car to induce some oversteer, all to assist turn in. FWD or RWD, you need to heel and toe when trail-braking because you don't wan't a sudden extra bit of retardation from the front or lock-up at the rear caused by re-engaging the clutch on a down-change when you've got the arse-end of the car 'up in the air'.
timarnold said:
Heel and toe is a necessary technique in RWD cars, it reduces the tendency to lock the rear wheels when down-changing under heavy braking, which can seriously unsettle the car and may induce a spin..............
Don't get me wrong I understand the benefits of it, that is why I was surprised the driver in question didn't do it, especially as he comes from a single seater background. Point is he was still quick and didn't spin.... well not when it mattered anyway!Car of mine he was driving is RWD with a sequential box.
Edited by RobinSherwood on Thursday 30th July 18:01
fergus said:
Having raced a clio cup car, I can assure you that left foot trail braking whilst still flat on the throttle helps quell understeer, especically at places like clearways at Brands..... I think the description of trail braking 'inducing over steer' is a bit wide of the mark. It simply aids weight transfer. That's all. It depends on the slip angle of the tyres plus the rear geo as to whether over steer results...
Obviously you don't understand why you do it, which isn't unusual.Why would you brake against the throttle? All that does is sap up some of the power with the brakes, hence it reduces the understeer. What's wrong with just easing off the throttle slightly to reduce the understeer and using a bit of finesse in your throttle control? The only possible benefit of using the brakes against the throttle is that the throttle is already wide open when you come off the brakes; but suddenly being back on full throttle might not be desirable. I know three drivers who were front runners (one won the championship) in Clios, and none of them used left foot braking.
So, "It simply aids weight transfer. That's all.", please explain why you would want to aid weight transfer? You do and I know2 why, but I suspect from your answer that you don't understand why, so please explain sop I can understand your thinking.
When I said 'induce oversteer' I should have perhaps said 'turn-in oversteer', I'm not talking about wildly sideways, I simply mean making the car more 'pointy' (oversteery) to aid turn in... which is what you trail brake for!
RobinSherwood said:
Don't get me wrong I understand the benefits of it, that is why I was surprised the driver in question didn't do it, especially as he comes from a single seater background. Point is he was still quick and didn't spin.... well not when it mattered anyway!
Car of mine he was driving is RWD with a sequential box.
A single seater driver that doesn't heel and toe??? Car of mine he was driving is RWD with a sequential box.
I mean F1 (or anything similar) with flappy paddle gears and a computer that blips for you, yeah! But any manual gearbox single seater, you need to heel and toe! I'm surprised too!A lot of useful tips have been posted but just to comment on the ARDS I was amazed how long was theory/classroom based (about 3-4 hours in my case) and then it was only about a total of 6 or so laps, 3 being assessed out on track.
Just tell your colleague to get along to a trackday, that'll be the best way of learning, no amount of 'studying' off track will be as good as being on track.
Just tell your colleague to get along to a trackday, that'll be the best way of learning, no amount of 'studying' off track will be as good as being on track.
timarnold said:
fergus said:
Having raced a clio cup car, I can assure you that left foot trail braking whilst still flat on the throttle helps quell understeer, especically at places like clearways at Brands..... I think the description of trail braking 'inducing over steer' is a bit wide of the mark. It simply aids weight transfer. That's all. It depends on the slip angle of the tyres plus the rear geo as to whether over steer results...
Obviously you don't understand why you do it, which isn't unusual.Why would you brake against the throttle? All that does is sap up some of the power with the brakes, hence it reduces the understeer. What's wrong with just easing off the throttle slightly to reduce the understeer and using a bit of finesse in your throttle control? The only possible benefit of using the brakes against the throttle is that the throttle is already wide open when you come off the brakes; but suddenly being back on full throttle might not be desirable. I know three drivers who were front runners (one won the championship) in Clios, and none of them used left foot braking.
So, "It simply aids weight transfer. That's all.", please explain why you would want to aid weight transfer? You do and I know why, but I suspect from your answer that you don't understand why, so please explain sop I can understand your thinking.
When I said 'induce oversteer' I should have perhaps said 'turn-in oversteer', I'm not talking about wildly sideways, I simply mean making the car more 'pointy' (oversteery) to aid turn in... which is what you trail brake for!
With an aggressive plate diff (as per the sadev unit in the clio), the car naturally wants to try and understeer into the corner (regardless of the geo), putting some more weight over the front helps the grip situation.
If you think about the polar moment of the car, then any rotation you can get around this w/o upsetting the slip angle of the tyres (i.e. steering input) is a good thing, as you can typically get on the power earlier. Your answer?
timarnold said:
Trail-braking is a technique that should be learned, particularly for cars with inerrant understeer
The word you want is inherrent (meaning native, inbred, ingrained). Inerrant means free from error or infallable - so clearly "inerrant understeer" is an oxymoron./pedant!
fergus said:
It's not so much braking against the throttle, but it's easier to modulate the left foot to gain traction, than it is to get a cammy engine back into the powerband to give you drive out of corners! I've also seen this technique demonstrated by Andy Walsh (car limits.co.uk). It's also used in Don Palmer's ice driving course in Sweden.....
With an aggressive plate diff (as per the sadev unit in the clio), the car naturally wants to try and understeer into the corner (regardless of the geo), putting some more weight over the front helps the grip situation.
If you think about the polar moment of the car, then any rotation you can get around this w/o upsetting the slip angle of the tyres (i.e. steering input) is a good thing, as you can typically get on the power earlier. Your answer?
It's easier to modulate your right foot on the throttle with a bit of finesse. All you're doing by left foot braking is to reduce the amount of power being transmitted to the road by sapping it up with the brakes; you can do the same thing by easing off the throttle, and you'll have a better feel of where the limit of grip is than if you're just holding the engine back with the brakes.With an aggressive plate diff (as per the sadev unit in the clio), the car naturally wants to try and understeer into the corner (regardless of the geo), putting some more weight over the front helps the grip situation.
If you think about the polar moment of the car, then any rotation you can get around this w/o upsetting the slip angle of the tyres (i.e. steering input) is a good thing, as you can typically get on the power earlier. Your answer?
Putting more weight over the front wheels to achieve a sharper turn in with less understeer is exactly what I said trail braking is for. But it works by placing more weight on the front and less weight on the back, increasing grip at the front and reducing grip at the back; so the car will yaw more easily (around the polar moments!), it's moving towards oversteer, it's more 'pointy'.
Slip angles: Absolutely they should not be overdone. If a car understeers it has too much slip angle at the front, and by default therefore, has to little at the back. By trail braking, increasing front grip and therefore reducing the slip angle, you reduce the understeer; in doing so (transferring weight) you are reducing the load and therefore grip at the rear, the rear begins to move laterally, generating slip angles at the rear. You balance it by modulating the throttle.
Left foot braking is used in ice driving and rally driving because they are done on very low grip surfaces - ice, mud, gravel - and is more about traction control than anything else. I don't know much about Andy Walsh, but from the videos I've seen of Don Palmer, he could do with coming on the card control courses a colleague of mine and I are organising. My colleague is both ARDS and BARS, chief rally instructor at Silverstone, race and rally driver, drift instructor and regarded by his peers as the best car control instructor in the business. His name is Brian Svenson. He agrees with me that left foot braking is mostly unnecessary on a race circuit.
And now I'm off because I have an early start, working for Caterham at Silverstone in the morning.
I blame my spell checker! LOLtimarnold said:
Why would you brake against the throttle? All that does is sap up some of the power with the brakes, hence it reduces the understeer. What's wrong with just easing off the throttle slightly to reduce the understeer and using a bit of finesse in your throttle control?
I believe you're missing the point. Applying the brake and throttle together results in the undriven wheels being braked more than the driven wheels. In a fwd car this applies braking to the rear, which increases the rear slip angle and moves the balance away from understeer towards oversteer.Similarly, in a rwd car it results in the front wheels being braked more than the rear which tends to move the car away from oversteer and towards understeer.
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff