Using mirrors on a trackday....

[fergus]

<Rant>

Why is it so difficult for people to use their mirrors on a t/day?

Was at Rockingham yesterday, and ended up resorting to driving round the outside of someone to get past after being on their tail for 6/7 corners (and got the associated bking for it, which in fairness was the correct thing for the TDO to do)

Also being reported for a 'non consensual' overtake on the EXIT of a bend or on the straight is pathetic. Neither of which are dangerous to either party.

TDO was very reasonable and took a sensible stance on the situation

<rant over>

[Chris71]

...went well then?

I agree that consideration for quicker traffic can be pretty poor and this is probably particularly obvious if you're used to racing as well as track days. I've been stuck behind people for several laps at a time in the past (not at Rockingham, but elsewhere), frantically waving at the marshalls to blue flag them. That said, I'm quite timid on the track, which probably doesn't help when I'm trying to get past someone.

Not wishing to issue a massively sweeping statement, but 9 times out of ten it seems to be a 911 of some description.

[Eddie the Ead]

Admittedly rules can be a pain in the arse but I'm glad there in place on the whole. It just needs slower cars to be more considerate. It the guys who indicate on the straights in their faster cars and then put their foot to the floor where theres no way of outdragging them, then moving back onto the racing line and braking way to early and you end up stuck behind them for another lap.

However having done a few foreign trackdays, it appears to be a total free for all. Its like I've just entered the first lap of the Nurburgring 24hrs.

[fergus]

Chris71 said:

...went well then?

I agree that consideration for quicker traffic can be pretty poor and this is probably particularly obvious if you're used to racing as well as track days. I've been stuck behind people for several laps at a time in the past (not at Rockingham, but elsewhere), frantically waving at the marshalls to blue flag them. That said, I'm quite timid on the track, which probably doesn't help when I'm trying to get past someone.

Not wishing to issue a massively sweeping statement, but 9 times out of ten it seems to be a 911 of some description.

Most of the time they were jap cars (skylines/evos) or the BaT 7s!
My car ate one of the throttle butterfly wedges, so is not sporting some bent valves!

[fergus]

Eddie the Ead said:

Admittedly rules can be a pain in the arse but I'm glad there in place on the whole. It just needs slower cars to be more considerate. It the guys who indicate on the straights in their faster cars and then put their foot to the floor where theres no way of outdragging them, then moving back onto the racing line and braking way to early and you end up stuck behind them for another lap.

However having done a few foreign trackdays, it appears to be a total free for all. Its like I've just entered the first lap of the Nurburgring 24hrs.

Agreed. Foreign days are akin to a test day, where almost anything goes! Not helped by the fact that some charge by the hour, which in the case of the govt supported 'Circuit Carole', near CDG, east Paris becomes a nightmare on a bike!

[Chris71]

fergus said:

Chris71 said:

...went well then?

I agree that consideration for quicker traffic can be pretty poor and this is probably particularly obvious if you're used to racing as well as track days. I've been stuck behind people for several laps at a time in the past (not at Rockingham, but elsewhere), frantically waving at the marshalls to blue flag them. That said, I'm quite timid on the track, which probably doesn't help when I'm trying to get past someone.

Not wishing to issue a massively sweeping statement, but 9 times out of ten it seems to be a 911 of some description.

Most of the time they were jap cars (skylines/evos) or the BaT 7s!
My car ate one of the throttle butterfly wedges, so is not sporting some bent valves!

The worst group I've seen were a hillariously clueless bunch of oriental teenagers who turned up at one of the Brands Indy evenings during the summer. Not one of them was in a machine worth less than a couple of times my annual salary. That's fair enough, but if I had that sort of money I'd use it to pay for some tuition, rather than parading round in a 996 TT or Skyline while people in S-Series TVRs (along with such track-bred exotica as MX5s and Pug 205s) sat in a queue behind me. The only one who actually appeared to be putting any effort in was even more of a menace and finished the day by putting his carbon bodied M3 CSL in the barriers.

Comiserations on the engine - good excuse to rebuild with a few more BHP?

Did you get to try the Radicals in the end?

[fergus]

Chris71 said:

fergus said:

Chris71 said:

...went well then?

Comiserations on the engine - good excuse to rebuild with a few more BHP?

Did you get to try the Radicals in the end?

Not sure where to go on the engine cost vs hp wise. If I go any further I'll have to invest in a full bottom end balance and steel rods, plus even more aggressive cams = ££££. I'm in the middle of having my bike engine rebuilt to just below superbike spec, so will have to start saving! I guess I'll have to see what the damage is like after the head has been removed....

Tried an SR4 rad for size, which although a squeeze, was OK. They weren't walking away from me on track though, which was surprising, although I was 'pressing on' Perhaps have to arrange a test day with one - if the "sales" guys at Radical ever get back to me? Not sure if they really want to sell anything?!

[T89 Callan]

It's consideration for the slower cars that is lacking. It drives me fking mental when I'm stuck behind a TVR/911/7/Exige who potters round the corners like my Grandad holding me up no end and then boots it down the straight so I can't pass.

It's selfish machoism of people who can't drive.

At Castle Combe a couple of weeks ago some knob in a TVR had a whole train stuck behind him, it was only when a 911 Turbo managed to pass him and then block him that the train could pass.

[Chris71]

T89 Callan said:

It's consideration for the slower cars that is lacking.

I think the cars are pretty irrelevant to be honest. Like I said above I've seen a near-standard 205 GTi stuck behind a 911 in the past. Obviously a driver's ability to be an ahole and hold people up is magnified if they have the power to keep people behind on the straights, but where they catch up is pretty irrelevant - the car in front should let them past If they're consistently quicker over a full lap.

[Graham E]

Always the bane of your track day life is that.
To me, there are a few camps to "blame":

1 - The novice. They're so busy being overwhelmed by their first track day, they forget to look behind them. I don't mind these ones much, by the afternoon they're normally up to speed, and to be fair I'm sure I did that first track day as well.

2 - Too arrogant to let you past. I used to get this on Porsche club track days a lot, as we used a "crappy little 944", while the tan slacks brigades held us up in 996 GT3's etc. Unfortunately, a 250 brake 944 can't overtake someone with 370 odd down the straight, which is a pity. However, this psychology works both ways, and if you tailgate them closelty enough, the gaffer tape on your front bumper starts to look intimidating, and a change of heart comes from the shiny car in front =)

3 - The "track day hero". These are the people that are worst to be around. Most of us know that it's a track day. Some people think it's a race. Their driving gets more and more on the limit as you approach, then they want a proper race on a normal day. I used to get this mainly in the Caterham, from the big engined westie boys at Cadwell - I expect (and enjoy) the C7 vs Westfield banter, and understand the need to compete. However, despite the stance on both sides, a badly set up Westy can't compete with a well set Superlight, no matter how many revs your 'Busa can do =) These guys are generally great fun in between sessions, but can be slightly worrying on track, when you're uninsured driving a car you can't really afford to fix if you bend it!

I also realise this is a forum, if It comes accross as "I think I'm a track god", sorry. it's meant to be light hearted.

[Elderly]

I've always enjoyed this picture from a long time ago but I know the people stuck behind the Radical didn't enjoy his driving.
I think the Canada Goose was going quicker

[Chris71]

Elderly said:

I suppose that could be a 600cc Global Lights car being followed by a Superlight R500 and a flock of 600bhp turbo nutters. It's not though is it?

[fergus]

Graham E said:

the tan slacks brigades held us up in 996 GT3's

brilliant!

[ARAF]

Come to Lydden. Overtaking on both sides and through bends. It doesn't result in mayhem, and doesn't lead to more accidents - maybe less, as drivers behind don't try to grasp an opportunity that isn't really there.

It does upset thouse people who can't make their expensive cars wide enough to keep everyone behind though.

[T89 Callan]

Chris71 said:

T89 Callan said:

It's consideration for the slower cars that is lacking.

I think the cars are pretty irrelevant to be honest. Like I said above I've seen a near-standard 205 GTi stuck behind a 911 in the past. Obviously a driver's ability to be an ahole and hold people up is magnified if they have the power to keep people behind on the straights, but where they catch up is pretty irrelevant - the car in front should let them past If they're consistently quicker over a full lap.

The point is my car is driven faster round corners because I know what I am doing but I'm not allowed to overtake on the corner, so I wait patiently and try to get a run onto the straight and then the slow-ass-giffer in his TVR floors it and I can't pass...

Then we get to the next corner and I'm blocked again.

If I had a TVR I would be fine, but I don't I have a 160bhp estate car.

[Lemoncurd]

I was at Rockingham on Sunday also with my Dad and brother What were you driving?
It was our 1st track day (in one of the BaT 7's - thanks guys, had a great day!) so hopefully it wasn't us that got in your way

Speaking as a newbie, it is pretty daunting at first especially with the weather like it was on Sunday. Having said that, it isn't too hard to get into the habit of checking your mirrors before a straight to let anything that has caught up behind you through. It is easy to spot the much faster cars, but when they are of a more similar pace it could be more difficult to work out if they were faster - I did tend to let most things in my mirror through though just to save the headache.

Pif-Paf is a great corner, but I couldn't get the hang of the last hairpin before the banking ...

[ARAF]

T89 Callan said:

It's consideration for the slower cars that is lacking.

Chris71 said:

I think the cars are pretty irrelevant to be honest. Like I said above I've seen a near-standard 205 GTi stuck behind a 911 in the past. Obviously a driver's ability to be an ahole and hold people up is magnified if they have the power to keep people behind on the straights, but where they catch up is pretty irrelevant - the car in front should let them past If they're consistently quicker over a full lap.

T89 Callan said:

The point is my car is driven faster round corners because I know what I am doing but I'm not allowed to overtake on the corner, so I wait patiently and try to get a run onto the straight and then the slow-ass-giffer in his TVR floors it and I can't pass...
Then we get to the next corner and I'm blocked again.
If I had a TVR I would be fine, but I don't I have a 160bhp estate car.

I think you're both singing from the same songsheet. The first post here is ambiguous. Slower cars could mean the one in front, rather than the one with (probably) less bhp, which is what I think you were both getting at.

[Herman Toothrot]

Funny, I don't think its any particular type of car that holds you up. I must admit I don't tend to wait to be waved past on the straights I pull as wide as possible, totally other side of the track and just nail it. I do find trackdays more fun in the faster car as you can just pass people with no bother. Last year I used my old n/a MR2 several times and I found that a bit frustrating as most things were faster down the straights but I caught lots under braking and was being held up in the bends. In the MX5 however it just isn't an issue, catch people through the bends and exiting on to straight just blast straight past.

I keep a good eye on my mirrors and always pull out the way even if someones only crept up very slowly behind me. In those circumstances I find it good to then follow as that persons just a bit quicker than you and so you can learn from their lines etc. I've had the odd person say to me later that I shouldn't have pulled over for them as I wasn't actually in the way and was going more or less just as fast. There have also been the odd occasion where I've been behind someone and they've not got out the way and have been quite right not to as I'm overall not faster than them, just equal so it makes for great fun chasing lap after lap.

You do get the odd person in very flash expensive stuff who won't lift off to let you past even with blue flags waving, but they are rare and seem to be the sort of people who arrive and only actually go out on track twice in the day, just mill about stood by their car most of the day.

[ARAF]

Lemoncurd said:

It is easy to spot the much faster cars, but when they are of a more similar pace it could be more difficult to work out if they were faster - I did tend to let most things in my mirror through though just to save the headache.

Rule of thumb: If you haven't just overtaken a car that's right behind you, then it's faster than you. The closer your lap times, the more frustrating it is, for the faster driver having to sit behind.

[willr]

Given the range of experience, lack of mirrors, overtaking rules etc on a trackday, it's reasonable to be stuck behind someone for 3, maybe 4 corners. After that, it's either deliberate, stupid or both...