Track day car share/cooperative
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm based in the south west (Bristol), and am considering buying an inexpensive car early next year, exclusively for track day usage.
I'm thinking something along the lines of an old Japanese car (MR2/Prelude/Impreza/MX-5 etc) or possibly an Alfa(145/146/156/spider). The choice would be more or less a case of 'most bang for buck', whatever comes up at the right price at the right time..
Given how irregularly I would be able to use it, it seems marginal as to whether it'd be worth it, given the cost of keeping an extra car on the road.
So, I'm wondering how many other people are out there in my boat... Who would like a track day car, but doesn't really want the financial burden or keeping an extra car on the road.
As such, i've come up with a concept that I think at least partially solves my dilemma, and possibly yours!:
It's quite simple, in my mind:
A few people throw a few hundred quid each in, becoming shareholders of a limited company. The limited company buys the car.
The shareholders then rent the car from company whenever they want, at a token payment of £X per day (to cover
consumables such as tyres, pads/discs etc).
Liability for damage is simple: you break it, you fix it or replace it. This would be a contractual term of the 'hire'. No if's or but's.
The shareholders then also contribute £x per year to cover road tax/MOT. This cost would be split equally between shareholders (you drive it on your own insurance)
I have access to a number of individuals who could keep the car on the road for minimal labour cost, so no expensive MOT bills either
In summary, what i'm offering here is a change to buy a share in a non profit making company, designed to provide affordable trackday driving to it's shareholders.
The operation would be perfectly legit and appropriately documented. I am a chartered accountant by profession, and my wife is a solicitor. We would donate our services free of charge to get the company formed and the contracts etc prepared.
If anyone out there is interested, drop me a line at d.vincec@hotmail.co.uk, or reply to this thread.
Dave
I'm based in the south west (Bristol), and am considering buying an inexpensive car early next year, exclusively for track day usage.
I'm thinking something along the lines of an old Japanese car (MR2/Prelude/Impreza/MX-5 etc) or possibly an Alfa(145/146/156/spider). The choice would be more or less a case of 'most bang for buck', whatever comes up at the right price at the right time..
Given how irregularly I would be able to use it, it seems marginal as to whether it'd be worth it, given the cost of keeping an extra car on the road.
So, I'm wondering how many other people are out there in my boat... Who would like a track day car, but doesn't really want the financial burden or keeping an extra car on the road.
As such, i've come up with a concept that I think at least partially solves my dilemma, and possibly yours!:
It's quite simple, in my mind:
A few people throw a few hundred quid each in, becoming shareholders of a limited company. The limited company buys the car.
The shareholders then rent the car from company whenever they want, at a token payment of £X per day (to cover
consumables such as tyres, pads/discs etc).
Liability for damage is simple: you break it, you fix it or replace it. This would be a contractual term of the 'hire'. No if's or but's.
The shareholders then also contribute £x per year to cover road tax/MOT. This cost would be split equally between shareholders (you drive it on your own insurance)
I have access to a number of individuals who could keep the car on the road for minimal labour cost, so no expensive MOT bills either
In summary, what i'm offering here is a change to buy a share in a non profit making company, designed to provide affordable trackday driving to it's shareholders.
The operation would be perfectly legit and appropriately documented. I am a chartered accountant by profession, and my wife is a solicitor. We would donate our services free of charge to get the company formed and the contracts etc prepared.
If anyone out there is interested, drop me a line at d.vincec@hotmail.co.uk, or reply to this thread.
Dave
Hmmm... so you're an accountant and your wife's a solicitor and, from the cars you list, you're thinking about spending £1k to £2k on a track car. And to finance this amazing, crazy, wonderful dream you think that a not for profit limited company is the best way to go.
Have you ever considered the possibilty that you just might have taken too many professional exams?
Here's a not for profit thought: Visa card.
Have you ever considered the possibilty that you just might have taken too many professional exams?
Here's a not for profit thought: Visa card.
philmorris said:
Hmmm... so you're an accountant and your wife's a solicitor and, from the cars you list, you're thinking about spending £1k to £2k on a track car. And to finance this amazing, crazy, wonderful dream you think that a not for profit limited company is the best way to go.
Have you ever considered the possibilty that you just might have taken too many professional exams?
Here's a not for profit thought: Visa card.
Perhaps a bit harsh Phil? Have you ever considered the possibilty that you just might have taken too many professional exams?
Here's a not for profit thought: Visa card.
I think Daves idea is reasonable on paper, but I suspect in practice would present issues with such things as safety liability etc
Generally car hire companies (this is pretty much what's being proposed here from what I see) are insured for such things as people injuring themselves due to a failure of the vehicle.
I'd say as soon as you start talking about setting up limited liability companies for a venture like this, the idea is already on thin ice.
Seems an extraordinary aamount of effort for a £2k car.
I'm not sure your insurance plan would work - the 'third party on any other car' cover requires that the other car be insured in the normal way, its just for 'emergency' situations to drive a car you aren't normally insured for.
Why not just rent a car from one of the many track car hire companies (e.g. Bookatrack) on the few trackdays you do. No grief about ownership, limited companies, maintenance, insurance or anything ...
I'm not sure your insurance plan would work - the 'third party on any other car' cover requires that the other car be insured in the normal way, its just for 'emergency' situations to drive a car you aren't normally insured for.
Why not just rent a car from one of the many track car hire companies (e.g. Bookatrack) on the few trackdays you do. No grief about ownership, limited companies, maintenance, insurance or anything ...
LOL... Many thanks for your constructive reply Phil!
Yes.. I could buy it outright... but then, I'd have a more significant argument with my wife, to justify a) the outlay... and b) the ongoing costs...
I might be the accountant in the family, but she's the one who most definately moans about spending money!
Dan: Yes, I agree, there is a possible liability issue.. but at the end of the day, it *might* be able to be excluded in the T&C's... or maybe some insurance would be required... I havn't actively looked into it, but most public liability insurance isn't prohibitively expensive... and at the end of the day.. it's only the 'shareholders'/'directors' of the company who would be driving the vehicles... are they going to sue their own company?
re: hire... yes, I would use a hire company... except I take exception to paying £250+ per day to hire a car thats no quicker than one that could be bought for £1-2k!
Yes.. I could buy it outright... but then, I'd have a more significant argument with my wife, to justify a) the outlay... and b) the ongoing costs...
I might be the accountant in the family, but she's the one who most definately moans about spending money!
Dan: Yes, I agree, there is a possible liability issue.. but at the end of the day, it *might* be able to be excluded in the T&C's... or maybe some insurance would be required... I havn't actively looked into it, but most public liability insurance isn't prohibitively expensive... and at the end of the day.. it's only the 'shareholders'/'directors' of the company who would be driving the vehicles... are they going to sue their own company?
re: hire... yes, I would use a hire company... except I take exception to paying £250+ per day to hire a car thats no quicker than one that could be bought for £1-2k!
tertius said:
- the 'third party on any other car' cover requires that the other car be insured in the normal way, its just for 'emergency' situations to drive a car you aren't normally insured for.
Not germain to the debate, but you are incorrect. You need to read your policy to find the exact Ts&Cs for this, but some do specify conditions like "emergency", none specify the car has to be insured elsewhere.Bert
I can understand your thinking and was having similar thoughts myself.
I've now bought a track slag, BMW 325 coupe. I'll start it on a diet and uprate suspension and brakes over the next month or two ready (I hope) for Brands Hatch on 23 January. My idea is that I will let mates use it for a nominal fee to cover running costs etc, I reckon on 4-5 people sharing the car for the day, should get a lot of track time for their money and hopefully it will subsidise the work, car and my fun!!
I've now bought a track slag, BMW 325 coupe. I'll start it on a diet and uprate suspension and brakes over the next month or two ready (I hope) for Brands Hatch on 23 January. My idea is that I will let mates use it for a nominal fee to cover running costs etc, I reckon on 4-5 people sharing the car for the day, should get a lot of track time for their money and hopefully it will subsidise the work, car and my fun!!
Tertius: If you can find me a BAT caterham for hire, for TRACK DAY usage at £250 a day.. i'll drop the idea immediately.. the fact is, if you CAN find a track day car for hire at that price, i'll be a clapped out old 306/golf/focus or something like that, and most likely that rate would be sharing the car with others, who are also paying £250 a day!
I'm not knocking the companies that offer track day hire.. they have their overheads, and need to make a margin to keep themselves afloat, but I really cannot justify spending £500+ a day to hire a quick car to blat around a track..
Yes, i have considered the costs.. which is exactly why I was looking to find like minded people to share them!!
Pete: that was more or less exactly how my thinking started... informal.. but then I thought if i was going to actually put it online, that i'd better legitimise it.. as Callan says... there is plenty of scope for it to end in tears if it's not dead clear who is responsible for what!
That aside.. let me know if you're short of heads for brands hatch, I'd be more than happy to cough up a few quid to borrow your beamer for a few laps..
I'm not knocking the companies that offer track day hire.. they have their overheads, and need to make a margin to keep themselves afloat, but I really cannot justify spending £500+ a day to hire a quick car to blat around a track..
Yes, i have considered the costs.. which is exactly why I was looking to find like minded people to share them!!
Pete: that was more or less exactly how my thinking started... informal.. but then I thought if i was going to actually put it online, that i'd better legitimise it.. as Callan says... there is plenty of scope for it to end in tears if it's not dead clear who is responsible for what!
That aside.. let me know if you're short of heads for brands hatch, I'd be more than happy to cough up a few quid to borrow your beamer for a few laps..
DDave79 said:
Tertius: If you can find me a BAT caterham for hire, for TRACK DAY usage at £250 a day.. i'll drop the idea immediately.. the fact is, if you CAN find a track day car for hire at that price, i'll be a clapped out old 306/golf/focus or something like that, and most likely that rate would be sharing the car with others, who are also paying £250 a day!
I did say in my post that they were more than £250/day. A quick look on their website suggests £395/day. So thats your benchmark, you have to run a track car for <£400/day.I think that once you have looked into all the costs, you'll find that they (and others like them) are actually pretty impressive value for money.
Consider: are you expecting to share your car with any of the other "owners" on any of these track days? Or will all days be single driver only? If you do think you might share then you should also consider the costs of sharing a hire car - two people half the cost (BaT charge £100 for a second driver so now we're at the 250/person/day level).
And make sure you include all the costs:
Purchase cost: depreciated over the number of track days you plan to do (less residual value)
Insurance: although Bertbert is right (and I was wrong on the point I made) you still need to insure it for up to 5 different drivers
Tax
Maintenance
Consumables - brakes and tyres mainly, highly variable according to the car of course but my 911 would use a set of tyres (at 600/set) roughly every 5 days, the Elise seems to be running at about half that rate (and the tyres are cheaper). If sharing the car the wear rates will be commensurately higher.
Fuel - again highly variable, but even my Elise uses over £50/day
Damage - obviously you hope you don't but accidents do happen (though to be fair I have no idea what happens if you stack a BaT cat)
I think the biggest potential problem is the "damage" clause:
-If someone goes too fast into a corner and ends up nudging a piece of the scenery lightly they will probably pay out happily to have the minor damage repaired.
-But if they have a much bigger accident, the repair costs might easily be north of a grand. What happens if they can't pay for whatever reason? And what happens to the other customers who had planned on using the car the next weekend and have already booked onto a trackday, but now have no car to take?
-And finally the clause of "if you break it, you pay for it". What happens if the engine gives out on the first lap of someones day and they have not even taken it to the top of the rev range. Although the damage may have occurred while the car was in their hands I suspect you would have some big arguments about who should pay for it!
It is possible to share trackday cars, but it either needs to be thought out very carefully, or everyone needs to be absolutely best of friends who have agreed implicitly that all costs will be shared equally.
-If someone goes too fast into a corner and ends up nudging a piece of the scenery lightly they will probably pay out happily to have the minor damage repaired.
-But if they have a much bigger accident, the repair costs might easily be north of a grand. What happens if they can't pay for whatever reason? And what happens to the other customers who had planned on using the car the next weekend and have already booked onto a trackday, but now have no car to take?
-And finally the clause of "if you break it, you pay for it". What happens if the engine gives out on the first lap of someones day and they have not even taken it to the top of the rev range. Although the damage may have occurred while the car was in their hands I suspect you would have some big arguments about who should pay for it!
It is possible to share trackday cars, but it either needs to be thought out very carefully, or everyone needs to be absolutely best of friends who have agreed implicitly that all costs will be shared equally.
tertius said:
I did say in my post that they were more than £250/day. A quick look on their website suggests £395/day. So thats your benchmark, you have to run a track car for <£400/day.
You have to add the track day cost to that too, ranging from £150 - £250 per car and an extra £20-£50 per additional driver.tertius said:
Damage - obviously you hope you don't but accidents do happen (though to be fair I have no idea what happens if you stack a BaT cat)
As far as I know, they self insure but have a large excess, circa £2,500 IIRCOK... Break it down I shall... for the sake of argument, lets say the car was an early Alfa 145 (my wife's runabout is a late 156 JTS, so I know how much alfa bits cost, making it easier for me to break down!)
For simplicity, lets say the car is kept one year, and is used collectively 20 times by it's owners in that year.
Purchase cost £1,000 (I've seen several tidy 145's for this sort of money... with recent history and the all important recent cam belt change)
Resale (provided it's still running- but quite shagged) £500= loss on disposal £500 / 20 runs = £25 a day depr. cost
On purchase: New cross drilled & slotted rotors up front with solid rotors at the rear, new pads all round = £150 (presuming 20 day pad life) = £7.50 per day
Tyres: £100 will get you a a set of 4 good tyres, on alfa alloys, on ebay.. when the tyres are chewed out, the alloys are still worth £50, also on ebay. Presuming only the fronts require a replacement every 10 days, thats a net cost of £50 for the year.. or £2.50 a day.
Top up oil (which sometimes appears to be burnt in equal proportions to petrol in an alfa) = £50, or £2.50 a day
Petrol: £50 a day.
Insurance, as i said... on your own!
Tax (6 months, assuming it has some when you buy it, and you sell it without) £100, or £5 per track day
Damage: max £1000- the value of the vehicle.. which is less than the BAT excess- so we won't count it. If you smash any car, it'll hurt.. so it can't really be counted as a relevant cost.
so... toting it all up.... thats £92.50 a day.. presuming single driver.... (excluding track fees).. or split between 2.. thats £46.25 a day.
Sure, an alfa 145 has nowhere near the pace of a caterham, but stripped out, 150hp will certainly shuffle it along fast enough to be a bit of value for money fun!
Then, after a year... the seats etc go back in, and it gets sold on... new year, new car..
At the end of the day, as I said, i'm not knocking BAT, or any other hire companies, but if they were not making money, they wouldn't be in business... In eliminating the profit element and some of the other overheads (staff, for example), I think track day driving can be infinately more affordable than it appears.
Chrissy:- As far as i'm concerned... engine failure is the fault of the driver... if it bombs, you pay for it.. as long as everyone understood that up front, it shouldnt be an issue... just a lottery that you don't want to win!!
If it gets broken, the expectation is that it gets fixed, or gets replaced, immediately... if you can't pay, you shouldnt be involved in the first place! as Phil commented when taking the piss... 'VISA' is a wonderful thing!
For simplicity, lets say the car is kept one year, and is used collectively 20 times by it's owners in that year.
Purchase cost £1,000 (I've seen several tidy 145's for this sort of money... with recent history and the all important recent cam belt change)
Resale (provided it's still running- but quite shagged) £500= loss on disposal £500 / 20 runs = £25 a day depr. cost
On purchase: New cross drilled & slotted rotors up front with solid rotors at the rear, new pads all round = £150 (presuming 20 day pad life) = £7.50 per day
Tyres: £100 will get you a a set of 4 good tyres, on alfa alloys, on ebay.. when the tyres are chewed out, the alloys are still worth £50, also on ebay. Presuming only the fronts require a replacement every 10 days, thats a net cost of £50 for the year.. or £2.50 a day.
Top up oil (which sometimes appears to be burnt in equal proportions to petrol in an alfa) = £50, or £2.50 a day
Petrol: £50 a day.
Insurance, as i said... on your own!
Tax (6 months, assuming it has some when you buy it, and you sell it without) £100, or £5 per track day
Damage: max £1000- the value of the vehicle.. which is less than the BAT excess- so we won't count it. If you smash any car, it'll hurt.. so it can't really be counted as a relevant cost.
so... toting it all up.... thats £92.50 a day.. presuming single driver.... (excluding track fees).. or split between 2.. thats £46.25 a day.
Sure, an alfa 145 has nowhere near the pace of a caterham, but stripped out, 150hp will certainly shuffle it along fast enough to be a bit of value for money fun!
Then, after a year... the seats etc go back in, and it gets sold on... new year, new car..
At the end of the day, as I said, i'm not knocking BAT, or any other hire companies, but if they were not making money, they wouldn't be in business... In eliminating the profit element and some of the other overheads (staff, for example), I think track day driving can be infinately more affordable than it appears.
Chrissy:- As far as i'm concerned... engine failure is the fault of the driver... if it bombs, you pay for it.. as long as everyone understood that up front, it shouldnt be an issue... just a lottery that you don't want to win!!
If it gets broken, the expectation is that it gets fixed, or gets replaced, immediately... if you can't pay, you shouldnt be involved in the first place! as Phil commented when taking the piss... 'VISA' is a wonderful thing!
DDave79 said:
On purchase: New cross drilled & slotted rotors up front with solid rotors at the rear, new pads all round = £150 (presuming 20 day pad life) = £7.50 per day
Tyres: £100 will get you a a set of 4 good tyres, on alfa alloys, on ebay.. when the tyres are chewed out, the alloys are still worth £50, also on ebay. Presuming only the fronts require a replacement every 10 days, thats a net cost of £50 for the year.. or £2.50 a day.
Looking at your disc and pad costs, it sounds like your pads will be OEM. They won't last a day. Nor will your discs due to the inexperience of your drivers who will cover them in deposits in a single session. Even if you had proper race compound pads, you will be lucky to see more than 8 days out of them.Tyres: £100 will get you a a set of 4 good tyres, on alfa alloys, on ebay.. when the tyres are chewed out, the alloys are still worth £50, also on ebay. Presuming only the fronts require a replacement every 10 days, thats a net cost of £50 for the year.. or £2.50 a day.
Your '4 good tyres' will be whatever road tyre crap you are gifted from your ebay purchase. These will also only last a single day in inexperienced hands. Even in experienced hands, they won't last more than 4 or 5 days unless the drivers go deliberately slowly to save them!
All in all, I think your ideas of 'infinitely more affordable' trackdays is a little off.
Edited by swtmerce on Sunday 15th November 15:34
Edited by swtmerce on Sunday 15th November 15:35
Fair enough on the pads... I was budgeting on OEM equivilents, as I chucked on the 156 a few months ago... lets bang another £50 on to allow for 'redstuff' on the front, and presume we replace the front pads half way through the year. so another £60 or so... an additional £110 in total, or £5.50 a day.
I think your tyre assessment is a bit exaggerated, to be totally honest... an idiot can burn a set of 'track' tyres just as quick as a set of 'road' tyres... and in some cases, i'd say quicker, given that the compound on many 'track' tyres is usually much softer than the typical 'road' tyre.
at the end of the day, whoever is driving the car, is a PART OWNER of the car... it's not really 'rental', so you'd have to expect the driver to have a certain element of respect, particularly given that the driver would be at least partially responsible for the replacement of tyres/pads etc.
none the less... for arguments sake, lets say the front tyres require replacement every second day... which means each net £50 loss lasts 4 days, rather than 20... the cost has gone up by an extra £10...
which.. by and large, still brings the overall cost in at £110ish per day, or £55 per person sharing.
I think your tyre assessment is a bit exaggerated, to be totally honest... an idiot can burn a set of 'track' tyres just as quick as a set of 'road' tyres... and in some cases, i'd say quicker, given that the compound on many 'track' tyres is usually much softer than the typical 'road' tyre.
at the end of the day, whoever is driving the car, is a PART OWNER of the car... it's not really 'rental', so you'd have to expect the driver to have a certain element of respect, particularly given that the driver would be at least partially responsible for the replacement of tyres/pads etc.
none the less... for arguments sake, lets say the front tyres require replacement every second day... which means each net £50 loss lasts 4 days, rather than 20... the cost has gone up by an extra £10...
which.. by and large, still brings the overall cost in at £110ish per day, or £55 per person sharing.
DDave79 said:
Chrissy:- As far as i'm concerned... engine failure is the fault of the driver... if it bombs, you pay for it.. as long as everyone understood that up front, it shouldnt be an issue... just a lottery that you don't want to win!!
If it gets broken, the expectation is that it gets fixed, or gets replaced, immediately... if you can't pay, you shouldnt be involved in the first place! as Phil commented when taking the piss... 'VISA' is a wonderful thing!
Fair enough if everyone is happy to follow that logic it should be ok on that front, but personally I dont think I would be completely happy. A line has to be drawn somewhere between what is driver fault and what is wear and tear or (worse for the "company") what is down to lack of preventative maintenance.If it gets broken, the expectation is that it gets fixed, or gets replaced, immediately... if you can't pay, you shouldnt be involved in the first place! as Phil commented when taking the piss... 'VISA' is a wonderful thing!
And although I am not quite as pessimistic as the previous poster, I would agree that your brake and tyre costs are very optimistic. No matter what the car or tyre, I would not expect 20 days life for a set of pads not for a set of tyres (as by your estimation the rears will not need replacing in that time). Also factor in the fact that people will probably be abusing it somewhat as it is not their car and the prediction is even more optimistic.
I am not trying to put you down, just saying that my cost estimations are different to yours and that personally I would enter into this very cautiously.
DDave79 said:
Fair enough on the pads... I was budgeting on OEM equivilents, as I chucked on the 156 a few months ago... lets bang another £50 on to allow for 'redstuff' on the front, and presume we replace the front pads half way through the year. so another £60 or so... an additional £110 in total, or £5.50 a day.
I think your tyre assessment is a bit exaggerated, to be totally honest... an idiot can burn a set of 'track' tyres just as quick as a set of 'road' tyres... and in some cases, i'd say quicker, given that the compound on many 'track' tyres is usually much softer than the typical 'road' tyre.
at the end of the day, whoever is driving the car, is a PART OWNER of the car... it's not really 'rental', so you'd have to expect the driver to have a certain element of respect, particularly given that the driver would be at least partially responsible for the replacement of tyres/pads etc.
none the less... for arguments sake, lets say the front tyres require replacement every second day... which means each net £50 loss lasts 4 days, rather than 20... the cost has gone up by an extra £10...
which.. by and large, still brings the overall cost in at £110ish per day, or £55 per person sharing.
Your estimates are getting better I think your tyre assessment is a bit exaggerated, to be totally honest... an idiot can burn a set of 'track' tyres just as quick as a set of 'road' tyres... and in some cases, i'd say quicker, given that the compound on many 'track' tyres is usually much softer than the typical 'road' tyre.
at the end of the day, whoever is driving the car, is a PART OWNER of the car... it's not really 'rental', so you'd have to expect the driver to have a certain element of respect, particularly given that the driver would be at least partially responsible for the replacement of tyres/pads etc.
none the less... for arguments sake, lets say the front tyres require replacement every second day... which means each net £50 loss lasts 4 days, rather than 20... the cost has gone up by an extra £10...
which.. by and large, still brings the overall cost in at £110ish per day, or £55 per person sharing.
Although you're still over-estimating the longevity of pads. One other thing I'd say about tyres is that road ones ARE easier to kill than track tyres due to the sidewalls that have no strength in comparison. Regardless, you've added in extra road tyres to your budget.
Sorry when I started writing my post your last one was not there.
I have just thought of something else:
Your estimates are based on ensuring you get the car "rented" 20 times per year. How can you be sure this will happen? If it only gets used on 10 days then it will still only be worth £500 at the end so the "company" will have lost £250.
I would be surprised if it is used 20 times seeing as a trackday is actually a fairly expensive affair (even if you are splitting the trackday fee 2 ways), so people might do a couple at the beginning of the year and then realise how much it is costing them and then do less.
eg a cheap trackday is about £100-150. split 2 ways and adding your estimates for renting, plus petrol to the track, plus a burger there and you are easily pushing over £150 each. If the trackday is more expensive or if it requires one night in a hotel then the cost is even more.
How many joint partners do you think you would need to get the car used on 20 days?
I have just thought of something else:
Your estimates are based on ensuring you get the car "rented" 20 times per year. How can you be sure this will happen? If it only gets used on 10 days then it will still only be worth £500 at the end so the "company" will have lost £250.
I would be surprised if it is used 20 times seeing as a trackday is actually a fairly expensive affair (even if you are splitting the trackday fee 2 ways), so people might do a couple at the beginning of the year and then realise how much it is costing them and then do less.
eg a cheap trackday is about £100-150. split 2 ways and adding your estimates for renting, plus petrol to the track, plus a burger there and you are easily pushing over £150 each. If the trackday is more expensive or if it requires one night in a hotel then the cost is even more.
How many joint partners do you think you would need to get the car used on 20 days?
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