Most cost efficient racing tuition/experience.
Discussion
Hello all. I’ve decided I want to learn how to race! (Or at least start doing track days). There are so many options out there at great cost with little substance such as 5 laps in this then 5 laps in that then 1 lap in a supercar then instructor driven in a hot hatch with a quaint little certificate at the end. This does not interest me in the slightest. Id rather have 10 laps in the same (and possibly slow) car, being taught about car control and cornering etc.
I see there are 'beginner' track days where I could get tuition which seems a good option but I don’t want to use my own car.
What is the most cost efficient way to get in a good few hours learning where I will actually improve, rather than move into a flash car and get a piece of paper that says I didn’t crash it in my one lap of tragic and slow driving where I learnt nothing?
p.s I’m not knocking these progressive experiences, they just aren’t for me.
EDIT: looking at a max of £300
I see there are 'beginner' track days where I could get tuition which seems a good option but I don’t want to use my own car.
What is the most cost efficient way to get in a good few hours learning where I will actually improve, rather than move into a flash car and get a piece of paper that says I didn’t crash it in my one lap of tragic and slow driving where I learnt nothing?
p.s I’m not knocking these progressive experiences, they just aren’t for me.
EDIT: looking at a max of £300
Edited by simple101 on Tuesday 24th November 21:54
unfortunately, your £300 isn't going to get you very far i'm afraid.
track time alone in the UK costs an average of about £1.50/minute (based on a 7 x 20 minute session day @ £200/day).
a half decent instructor will cost you about the same (£1.50/minute).
even a cheap car (borrowed from a friend free of charge) will cost at least 50p/minute in fuel/brakes/tyres (assuming an average of 70mph + 15mpg). add in running costs and depreciation/insurance etc and you're hard pushed to run one for under £1/minute.
that would give a very rough figure of about 75 minutes driving for your £300. better value than your average red-letter-day experience, but not quite the training program it sounds like you're looking for :-(
Jonny
BaT
track time alone in the UK costs an average of about £1.50/minute (based on a 7 x 20 minute session day @ £200/day).
a half decent instructor will cost you about the same (£1.50/minute).
even a cheap car (borrowed from a friend free of charge) will cost at least 50p/minute in fuel/brakes/tyres (assuming an average of 70mph + 15mpg). add in running costs and depreciation/insurance etc and you're hard pushed to run one for under £1/minute.
that would give a very rough figure of about 75 minutes driving for your £300. better value than your average red-letter-day experience, but not quite the training program it sounds like you're looking for :-(
Jonny
BaT
The old saying of "you get what you pay for" will apply here.
i can vouch for mike wilds ( www.mikewilds.com ) a very good and capable tutor which is what you want by the sound of it.
Also Maxx ( http://www.driver-coaching.com/ ) is a good chap to listen too.
One think to make a note of is that not all good drivers are good tutors.
Happy Hunting
i can vouch for mike wilds ( www.mikewilds.com ) a very good and capable tutor which is what you want by the sound of it.
Also Maxx ( http://www.driver-coaching.com/ ) is a good chap to listen too.
One think to make a note of is that not all good drivers are good tutors.
Happy Hunting
Heard good things about Andy Walsh at carlimits.com
Your not going to be able to hire a car as well though for your current budget.
I am going to be doing an 'activity day for all' there in a couple of weeks. Never done it before so cant really tell you much first hand.
The day im doing doesnt involve any instruction and you use your own car but it only costs £46 for the whole day and im sure I will learn something...
Your not going to be able to hire a car as well though for your current budget.
I am going to be doing an 'activity day for all' there in a couple of weeks. Never done it before so cant really tell you much first hand.
The day im doing doesnt involve any instruction and you use your own car but it only costs £46 for the whole day and im sure I will learn something...
I can recommend Driver Development at www.driverdp.com. They are slightly over your budget and you use your own car but in a very safe environment. It'll get you on a track with an expert for a day, with some good skidpan and handling courses too.
Ian.
Ian.
mgv8dave said:
Also Maxx ( http://www.driver-coaching.com/ ) is a good chap to listen too.
+1 He has an excellent ability to analyse your driving coupled with some nifty gps tools.I'd also recommened a carlimits day with walshy.
Why don't you want to use your IS? It's perfect for this!
Also Mike at http://drivertuition.com/ I have booked him for tuition on the track a number of times. He has a very well set up e36 M3.
From the sounds of it you've not driven on track before so forgive me if the below are things you already know.
I started back on track this year after many years break. I went back to basics.
First off I'd suggest having look at http://www.drivingfast.net/techniques/track-corner...
Then get a good book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Faster-Mastering-Rac... (£20)
Book an activity day with Andy Walsh at www.carlimits.com (6 Dec £46) use your own car as there is virtually no danger of damage. You won't get instruction but you can experiment with the car safely and without the need for a crash helmet and a lot of the other people there will be able to offer advice.
Then book an airfield day with your preferred company. Again use your car, by now you will be more confident and airfields are relatively safe. This should be about £100-120 plus £50-60 for an instructor for 3 sessions and £20 for helmet hire. Do a couple of sessions under instruction, a couple without, then another with and a last one without. Thats more than enough for your first time.
Still leaves £30-40 towards petrol and tyres and you will have had a great couple of days, learned the basics and grown more confident in your car and your own abilities.
I started back on track this year after many years break. I went back to basics.
First off I'd suggest having look at http://www.drivingfast.net/techniques/track-corner...
Then get a good book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Faster-Mastering-Rac... (£20)
Book an activity day with Andy Walsh at www.carlimits.com (6 Dec £46) use your own car as there is virtually no danger of damage. You won't get instruction but you can experiment with the car safely and without the need for a crash helmet and a lot of the other people there will be able to offer advice.
Then book an airfield day with your preferred company. Again use your car, by now you will be more confident and airfields are relatively safe. This should be about £100-120 plus £50-60 for an instructor for 3 sessions and £20 for helmet hire. Do a couple of sessions under instruction, a couple without, then another with and a last one without. Thats more than enough for your first time.
Still leaves £30-40 towards petrol and tyres and you will have had a great couple of days, learned the basics and grown more confident in your car and your own abilities.
jleroux said:
unfortunately, your £300 isn't going to get you very far i'm afraid.
track time alone in the UK costs an average of about £1.50/minute (based on a 7 x 20 minute session day @ £200/day).
a half decent instructor will cost you about the same (£1.50/minute).
even a cheap car (borrowed from a friend free of charge) will cost at least 50p/minute in fuel/brakes/tyres (assuming an average of 70mph + 15mpg). add in running costs and depreciation/insurance etc and you're hard pushed to run one for under £1/minute.
that would give a very rough figure of about 75 minutes driving for your £300. better value than your average red-letter-day experience, but not quite the training program it sounds like you're looking for :-(
Jonny
BaT
For that money its a no-brainer. Andy Walsh at carlimits. you will need a car but you will learn more there than 10 instructed track days no matter what you are driving.track time alone in the UK costs an average of about £1.50/minute (based on a 7 x 20 minute session day @ £200/day).
a half decent instructor will cost you about the same (£1.50/minute).
even a cheap car (borrowed from a friend free of charge) will cost at least 50p/minute in fuel/brakes/tyres (assuming an average of 70mph + 15mpg). add in running costs and depreciation/insurance etc and you're hard pushed to run one for under £1/minute.
that would give a very rough figure of about 75 minutes driving for your £300. better value than your average red-letter-day experience, but not quite the training program it sounds like you're looking for :-(
Jonny
BaT
thanks alot for your suggestions. Seems i could use some more monies!
EDIT: i dont want to use my IS because its not really in optimum condition in the brakes and tyre department. and if it breaks, i cant get to work. I would otherwise though.
EDIT: i dont want to use my IS because its not really in optimum condition in the brakes and tyre department. and if it breaks, i cant get to work. I would otherwise though.
Edited by simple101 on Monday 30th November 17:54
simple101 said:
thanks alot for your suggestions. Seems i could use some more monies!
EDIT: i dont want to use my IS because its not really in optimum condition in the brakes and tyre department. and if it breaks, i cant get to work. I would otherwise though.
What's wrong with the brakes and tyres? EDIT: i dont want to use my IS because its not really in optimum condition in the brakes and tyre department. and if it breaks, i cant get to work. I would otherwise though.
Spare set of wheels with tyres for buggerall from ebay and an overhaul of your brakes would cost wayyyyyy less than hiring a car.
PS. Want to sell the IS?
I don't really do posts, but, for what it's worth, a bit of advice.
If you have an intent to go racing £300 is not going to get you very far. £10K would be a realistic starting point, with something like the MR2 series would be not a bad way to go. With your BM forget Kuhmo, it'll cost you a couple of re-shells before you finish a season!
As Jonny intimated, it'll cost you between £700 and £1000 to get a day on track in a car other than your own where you are actually going to get a day's worth of instruction rather than a few laps then a coffee. That's what it costs to run a car on track and get decent quality instruction. That's £250-400 for the instruction, £150-250 for the trackday, £100 fuel, £100 tyres min, £1-200 brakes and sundry wear. Not including insurance!
I put people in an M3 for about £8-900 on track for the day. IT works well, you get 150-250 miles of track experience and it's an enjoyable day. BUT, I always recommend doing a day on road first. Not all trainers do this, partly because most of them can't legally do it. IT may not sound the exciting option but it sorts out most of the driving issues that cause people to be a/slow b/crash c/lack smoothness d/ruin their car. I have trained guys in various race series on the road, Police class one drivers and hundreds of performance car owners. It works. I often put them in my little Panda 100HP(laugh now if you want) but it sorts out the issues. To the extent that, for example, two guys who were mid-placed racers last year both won their class this year. We use roads that allow appropriate technique development and we upset no-one. Some routes are ones used for Class 1 refresher courses, some are Road rally classic routes, some are just not really used by anyone.
I have a guy in a 911 who, last session, we decided is ready for track. But he has done four road sessions first. Intelligent guy. And it's cost him way less than a set of rubber. He can now heel & toe, balance brake into turn in, work throttle to steering, relax on his steer - and has yet to drive a racetrack. Another guy just flew through his ARDS - he spent two sessions in the Panda, first on road. (He spent over £200 for 1 hour in a 197 around Oulton, learned nothing and was told complete clap-trap by the "instructor).
If you can't drive really well on the road, don't expect to be Schumi on track. And 90% of people who drive performance cars on road really aren't particularly good. By way of example almost no-one changes gear effectively. If your left foot is the first thing to move you've got it wrong......
If you have an intent to go racing £300 is not going to get you very far. £10K would be a realistic starting point, with something like the MR2 series would be not a bad way to go. With your BM forget Kuhmo, it'll cost you a couple of re-shells before you finish a season!
As Jonny intimated, it'll cost you between £700 and £1000 to get a day on track in a car other than your own where you are actually going to get a day's worth of instruction rather than a few laps then a coffee. That's what it costs to run a car on track and get decent quality instruction. That's £250-400 for the instruction, £150-250 for the trackday, £100 fuel, £100 tyres min, £1-200 brakes and sundry wear. Not including insurance!
I put people in an M3 for about £8-900 on track for the day. IT works well, you get 150-250 miles of track experience and it's an enjoyable day. BUT, I always recommend doing a day on road first. Not all trainers do this, partly because most of them can't legally do it. IT may not sound the exciting option but it sorts out most of the driving issues that cause people to be a/slow b/crash c/lack smoothness d/ruin their car. I have trained guys in various race series on the road, Police class one drivers and hundreds of performance car owners. It works. I often put them in my little Panda 100HP(laugh now if you want) but it sorts out the issues. To the extent that, for example, two guys who were mid-placed racers last year both won their class this year. We use roads that allow appropriate technique development and we upset no-one. Some routes are ones used for Class 1 refresher courses, some are Road rally classic routes, some are just not really used by anyone.
I have a guy in a 911 who, last session, we decided is ready for track. But he has done four road sessions first. Intelligent guy. And it's cost him way less than a set of rubber. He can now heel & toe, balance brake into turn in, work throttle to steering, relax on his steer - and has yet to drive a racetrack. Another guy just flew through his ARDS - he spent two sessions in the Panda, first on road. (He spent over £200 for 1 hour in a 197 around Oulton, learned nothing and was told complete clap-trap by the "instructor).
If you can't drive really well on the road, don't expect to be Schumi on track. And 90% of people who drive performance cars on road really aren't particularly good. By way of example almost no-one changes gear effectively. If your left foot is the first thing to move you've got it wrong......
Edited by instructormike on Monday 30th November 23:07
For reference, my referred-to ARDS lad's comments, after his road drive: " Hi Mike, Cheers for today, that was quite a powerful insight into my road driving, never mind track technique! Thoroughly enjoyed it and learnt more in a couple of hours than I ever thought was possible. Thanks for bearing with my driving. I felt an immediate improvement by the end, but know that I fall far short of being 'good' at the moment. It's a bloody good job I came across your website! I've delayed the Clio session. See you next week. Regards"
I generally agree about ARDS, but that wasn't really the crux of my post. It was more to point out that people pay for instruction in a place where it is expensive on venue and car, to a large extent, initially unnecessarily. But many "consumers" often still feel that they want to pay for an "experience", rather than self-improvement.
There are a few trainers out there who, initially, don't need to take you anywhere near a racetrack; who can iron out a significant number of major driving issues in a less expensive and less stressful environment than a track. For most £300 seems a lot to pay for what seems like a day's glorified driving lessons, as you can't go to the pub afterwards and talk about flying through Druids or Gerrards at some death-defying speed, or flicking the car sideways on an abrasive airfield at 90mph with your little finger. "You pays your money you takes your choice".
I generally agree about ARDS, but that wasn't really the crux of my post. It was more to point out that people pay for instruction in a place where it is expensive on venue and car, to a large extent, initially unnecessarily. But many "consumers" often still feel that they want to pay for an "experience", rather than self-improvement.
There are a few trainers out there who, initially, don't need to take you anywhere near a racetrack; who can iron out a significant number of major driving issues in a less expensive and less stressful environment than a track. For most £300 seems a lot to pay for what seems like a day's glorified driving lessons, as you can't go to the pub afterwards and talk about flying through Druids or Gerrards at some death-defying speed, or flicking the car sideways on an abrasive airfield at 90mph with your little finger. "You pays your money you takes your choice".
instructormike said:
I generally agree about ARDS, but that wasn't really the crux of my post.
I appreciate that, I was making the point that ARDS isn't 'all that'. 
FWIW, I agree with your sentiment. Having done various courses; instructor sessions on trackdays, Carlimits, Silverstone 'Race Intensive', Palmersport, a full day 121 with an ex F1 driver, a 2 day course at Hockenheim - I can categorically say that in terms of learning, the experience type days (I include Silverstone Race Intensive in this) are a complete waste of money.
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff