Tyres - What should I do?
Discussion
Was hoping some of you more experienced guys could give me some advice.
(I realise some of these points may have been partially answered before, but searching accurately is difficult)
I decided that I would probably do 4 or 5 trackdays this year. (and probably roughly the same next year)
I've previously thought about track wheels/tyres, but made the decision that as I don't care about outright pace I would stick to road tyres to keep things simple. I've only done 2 trackdays previously, and tyre wear wasn't too bad, probably due to half the day being wet each time.
However, I had my first full dry day at Bedford on Monday, and I realised my road tyres were taking quite a hammering. I properly inspected them today, and it seems like I have worn them quite a lot. The rears have just worn evenly a lot, front right hasn't worn too badly, but front left looks like it was melting.
This has made me wonder whether it would be cheaper in the long run to actually get a second set of wheels with track tyres.
So, onto the questions. (Bearing in mind, the car is a full weight e46 M3)
How much better do track tyres last compared to road tyres? Based on Monday, I reckon a set of road tyres could be destroyed in two days.
As I am more interested in longevity than outright grip, would something like the Kunho V70A in HARD compound be the one to go for?
My other concern was always the hassle of having two sets of wheels. Do you all take your track wheels with you and fit them on the day? Or do some just fit them the day before and run them regardless of weather?
My initial thought was maybe to check the weather forecast the day before, and if its Heavy Rain leave the road wheels on, otherwise put the Track wheels on and hope for the best. Is this a silly idea?
How bad are track tyres when it's wet? Are they still nearly as good as road tyres would be?
Any opinions on any of these points welcome.
(I realise some of these points may have been partially answered before, but searching accurately is difficult)
I decided that I would probably do 4 or 5 trackdays this year. (and probably roughly the same next year)
I've previously thought about track wheels/tyres, but made the decision that as I don't care about outright pace I would stick to road tyres to keep things simple. I've only done 2 trackdays previously, and tyre wear wasn't too bad, probably due to half the day being wet each time.
However, I had my first full dry day at Bedford on Monday, and I realised my road tyres were taking quite a hammering. I properly inspected them today, and it seems like I have worn them quite a lot. The rears have just worn evenly a lot, front right hasn't worn too badly, but front left looks like it was melting.
This has made me wonder whether it would be cheaper in the long run to actually get a second set of wheels with track tyres.
So, onto the questions. (Bearing in mind, the car is a full weight e46 M3)
How much better do track tyres last compared to road tyres? Based on Monday, I reckon a set of road tyres could be destroyed in two days.
As I am more interested in longevity than outright grip, would something like the Kunho V70A in HARD compound be the one to go for?
My other concern was always the hassle of having two sets of wheels. Do you all take your track wheels with you and fit them on the day? Or do some just fit them the day before and run them regardless of weather?
My initial thought was maybe to check the weather forecast the day before, and if its Heavy Rain leave the road wheels on, otherwise put the Track wheels on and hope for the best. Is this a silly idea?
How bad are track tyres when it's wet? Are they still nearly as good as road tyres would be?
Any opinions on any of these points welcome.
you shouldn't try and save money by running slick or semi-slick tyres - it's a massive false economy.
firstly, you put significantly more stress through all the other parts of the car (brakes, suspension, engine)
secondly, if/when you do make a mistake and leave the circuit - you are going significantly faster
finally, they don't last appreciably longer than a decent road tyre anyway and generally cost quite a bit more.
all that said, a second set of rims with some like-for-like road tyres that you can wear down past the TWI's is a good idea and *can* save you quite a bit of money.
HTH
firstly, you put significantly more stress through all the other parts of the car (brakes, suspension, engine)
secondly, if/when you do make a mistake and leave the circuit - you are going significantly faster
finally, they don't last appreciably longer than a decent road tyre anyway and generally cost quite a bit more.
all that said, a second set of rims with some like-for-like road tyres that you can wear down past the TWI's is a good idea and *can* save you quite a bit of money.
HTH
I'm going with completely the opposite response to that above based on actual experiance. when I was doing a handful of trackdays per year i found that with each one your speed and confidence increases. after a half dozen you will find that you will melt the front road tyres in a very small number of laps.
for myself i switched to toyo triple 8's which gave massive confidence on track and showed very little ware. I ended up keeping the toyo's on all the time as wet grip on the road was better than the oem pirelli rossos.
I had a set of toyos on for about 10,000 (1 year)road miles and about 10 trackdays and they were still legal when I took them off to sell the car.
for myself i switched to toyo triple 8's which gave massive confidence on track and showed very little ware. I ended up keeping the toyo's on all the time as wet grip on the road was better than the oem pirelli rossos.
I had a set of toyos on for about 10,000 (1 year)road miles and about 10 trackdays and they were still legal when I took them off to sell the car.
Paul_M3 said:
Was hoping some of you more experienced guys could give me some advice.
(I realise some of these points may have been partially answered before, but searching accurately is difficult)
I decided that I would probably do 4 or 5 trackdays this year. (and probably roughly the same next year)
I've previously thought about track wheels/tyres, but made the decision that as I don't care about outright pace I would stick to road tyres to keep things simple. I've only done 2 trackdays previously, and tyre wear wasn't too bad, probably due to half the day being wet each time.
However, I had my first full dry day at Bedford on Monday, and I realised my road tyres were taking quite a hammering. I properly inspected them today, and it seems like I have worn them quite a lot. The rears have just worn evenly a lot, front right hasn't worn too badly, but front left looks like it was melting.
This has made me wonder whether it would be cheaper in the long run to actually get a second set of wheels with track tyres.
So, onto the questions. (Bearing in mind, the car is a full weight e46 M3)
How much better do track tyres last compared to road tyres? Based on Monday, I reckon a set of road tyres could be destroyed in two days.
As I am more interested in longevity than outright grip, would something like the Kunho V70A in HARD compound be the one to go for?
My other concern was always the hassle of having two sets of wheels. Do you all take your track wheels with you and fit them on the day? Or do some just fit them the day before and run them regardless of weather?
My initial thought was maybe to check the weather forecast the day before, and if its Heavy Rain leave the road wheels on, otherwise put the Track wheels on and hope for the best. Is this a silly idea?
How bad are track tyres when it's wet? Are they still nearly as good as road tyres would be?
Any opinions on any of these points welcome.
(I realise some of these points may have been partially answered before, but searching accurately is difficult)
I decided that I would probably do 4 or 5 trackdays this year. (and probably roughly the same next year)
I've previously thought about track wheels/tyres, but made the decision that as I don't care about outright pace I would stick to road tyres to keep things simple. I've only done 2 trackdays previously, and tyre wear wasn't too bad, probably due to half the day being wet each time.
However, I had my first full dry day at Bedford on Monday, and I realised my road tyres were taking quite a hammering. I properly inspected them today, and it seems like I have worn them quite a lot. The rears have just worn evenly a lot, front right hasn't worn too badly, but front left looks like it was melting.
This has made me wonder whether it would be cheaper in the long run to actually get a second set of wheels with track tyres.
So, onto the questions. (Bearing in mind, the car is a full weight e46 M3)
How much better do track tyres last compared to road tyres? Based on Monday, I reckon a set of road tyres could be destroyed in two days.
As I am more interested in longevity than outright grip, would something like the Kunho V70A in HARD compound be the one to go for?
My other concern was always the hassle of having two sets of wheels. Do you all take your track wheels with you and fit them on the day? Or do some just fit them the day before and run them regardless of weather?
My initial thought was maybe to check the weather forecast the day before, and if its Heavy Rain leave the road wheels on, otherwise put the Track wheels on and hope for the best. Is this a silly idea?
How bad are track tyres when it's wet? Are they still nearly as good as road tyres would be?
Any opinions on any of these points welcome.
The "melting" look can be quite common with road tyres at track days - that and the common "blueing" effect - just means they were very hot and working hard - not all the rubber is yours also, when very hot they will pick up chunks of rubber from the track and this will "bond" to the existing tyre. See what they look like after a few hundred road miles - you may find they start to look normal again after the ragged edges are worn back down to normal.
As for the wear being on one side this is also common as most circuits punish one side of the car more than the other - so you can experiment with uneven tyre pressures, or possibly rotate the tyres round the car if not directional - doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong with the car.
As for the wear being on one side this is also common as most circuits punish one side of the car more than the other - so you can experiment with uneven tyre pressures, or possibly rotate the tyres round the car if not directional - doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong with the car.
GreigM said:
The "melting" look can be quite common with road tyres at track days - that and the common "blueing" effect - just means they were very hot and working hard - not all the rubber is yours also, when very hot they will pick up chunks of rubber from the track and this will "bond" to the existing tyre. See what they look like after a few hundred road miles - you may find they start to look normal again after the ragged edges are worn back down to normal.
As for the wear being on one side this is also common as most circuits punish one side of the car more than the other - so you can experiment with uneven tyre pressures, or possibly rotate the tyres round the car if not directional - doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong with the car.
I agree with all of the above.As for the wear being on one side this is also common as most circuits punish one side of the car more than the other - so you can experiment with uneven tyre pressures, or possibly rotate the tyres round the car if not directional - doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong with the car.
On a summers T/D, all my triple 8's are "melting" away and are seriously hot to the touch!
I always do T/D's on the triple 8's, even when raining because their grip is superior, even in the rain to my road wheels with T1R's.
The last "wet" T/d I did I wore the tyres down to bald and they were still predictable, (if not interesting)
.If you're going to be dedicated at track days and have room, it may be easier/cheaper to buy a much lighter E30 chassis .
Much better on consumables.
An E46 M3 on either road or track rubber is going to go through tyres , brakes, and bushes due to its weight, the body roll, and big straight line speed.
m
Much better on consumables.
An E46 M3 on either road or track rubber is going to go through tyres , brakes, and bushes due to its weight, the body roll, and big straight line speed.
m
"Correctly" to a given specification, and "optimised" for the modifications and use are two different things.
If the car remains a regularly enjoyed road car, then leave the geometry "correctly" adjusted, however if the use has changed to feature a lot of track work with alternative tyres to those that the car's geometry was specified for, then there is a lot of opportunity to "optimise" that cars geometry.
Next time you do a trackday, borrow a pyrometer probe, and check your tyre temperatures across the surface is a number or places.
Greater grip = greater body roll = greater weight onto the outer portion of the tyre = opportunity to increase camber to flatten the tyre onto the road surface during cornering.
Excellent example of graining in the first picture BTW.
If the car remains a regularly enjoyed road car, then leave the geometry "correctly" adjusted, however if the use has changed to feature a lot of track work with alternative tyres to those that the car's geometry was specified for, then there is a lot of opportunity to "optimise" that cars geometry.
Next time you do a trackday, borrow a pyrometer probe, and check your tyre temperatures across the surface is a number or places.
Greater grip = greater body roll = greater weight onto the outer portion of the tyre = opportunity to increase camber to flatten the tyre onto the road surface during cornering.
Excellent example of graining in the first picture BTW.
Thanks for the comments guys.
Mat, the car has recently had the geometry set up to my own specs. It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
Weed, I cannot have a dedicated lighter track car unfortunately.
It seems like track tyres can wear very quickly too in some circumstances, and I have heard the M3 is too heavy for 888's. That's why I was curious about Kumho's in the HARD compound.
If I stuck with road tyres only, are some known to be better at handling the heat/stress than others? Michelin PS2's for instance?
Mat, the car has recently had the geometry set up to my own specs. It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
Weed, I cannot have a dedicated lighter track car unfortunately.
It seems like track tyres can wear very quickly too in some circumstances, and I have heard the M3 is too heavy for 888's. That's why I was curious about Kumho's in the HARD compound.
If I stuck with road tyres only, are some known to be better at handling the heat/stress than others? Michelin PS2's for instance?
Paul_M3 said:
It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
I wouldn't want any more than that - certainly not on a road car. While negative camber is good in corners, it makes the car more unstable under braking, so you need to balance out your needs...chris7676 said:
Obviously way too little negative camber for those tyres and these cars. I'm running around -3.5 (with the help of shims and longer strut-to-hub bolts) with normal tyres and no problems like these. And still very fine on the road.
I disagree, it does look that way but on that day, warm very grippy, I was having a one to one instruction on an empty track, (airfield), with no break for half a day 
.Many of the fast bends were taken in excess of 90 mph with the car drifting in total control, that I believe, is what you pay for with Triple 8's!
Unfortunately, I had to drive home with 4 illegal tyres, there's a moral there somewhere!
On a normal track day, wear is pretty even.
Front has + 1 degree neg camber
Rear has + 1/2 " " "
HCM.
Paul_M3 said:
Thanks for the comments guys.
Mat, the car has recently had the geometry set up to my own specs. It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
Weed, I cannot have a dedicated lighter track car unfortunately.
It seems like track tyres can wear very quickly too in some circumstances, and I have heard the M3 is too heavy for 888's. That's why I was curious about Kumho's in the HARD compound.
If I stuck with road tyres only, are some known to be better at handling the heat/stress than others? Michelin PS2's for instance?
1.5 deg optimal on e46?? when e36M most of us run 2.5 as a fair road & track compramise? 1.5 is nowhere near enough.Mat, the car has recently had the geometry set up to my own specs. It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
Weed, I cannot have a dedicated lighter track car unfortunately.
It seems like track tyres can wear very quickly too in some circumstances, and I have heard the M3 is too heavy for 888's. That's why I was curious about Kumho's in the HARD compound.
If I stuck with road tyres only, are some known to be better at handling the heat/stress than others? Michelin PS2's for instance?
With camber ajust top mounts easy to change for track, lots of the csl guys ran 3.5 or so for track knock it back for road.
I hammered fronts when I ran wallowamayic stock M3 set up, the lardy bm just mullered them as it keeled over so much, with decent suspension & decent geo & the wear was so much reduced.
If you keep the stock wallowy soft M suspension you will always hammer fronts regardless.
As a road tyre I got good track life from Goodyear eagle f1s, the arrow tread shaped jobbies- 888, ao48 esk, think they have changed now?
I Agree , I'm in the 3rd year of this M3(E46) and have tried most options .
If you must use original suspension, there is a simple mod to get negative front camber, simply swap the top mounts from left to right and rotate thro 60 degrees. this gives 2.5 degrees .
Working with Allan from Toyo, my car with suspension suitable for the track required 2.75 front and 2.25 rear camber settings. This obviously wears the inside edge if used as daily transport.
iguana said:
Paul_M3 said:
Thanks for the comments guys.
Mat, the car has recently had the geometry set up to my own specs. It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
Weed, I cannot have a dedicated lighter track car unfortunately.
It seems like track tyres can wear very quickly too in some circumstances, and I have heard the M3 is too heavy for 888's. That's why I was curious about Kumho's in the HARD compound.
If I stuck with road tyres only, are some known to be better at handling the heat/stress than others? Michelin PS2's for instance?
1.5 deg optimal on e46?? when e36M most of us run 2.5 as a fair road & track compramise? 1.5 is nowhere near enough.Mat, the car has recently had the geometry set up to my own specs. It's running as much negative camber on the front as possible (only -1.5 degrees), and a little bit of toe out.
Weed, I cannot have a dedicated lighter track car unfortunately.
It seems like track tyres can wear very quickly too in some circumstances, and I have heard the M3 is too heavy for 888's. That's why I was curious about Kumho's in the HARD compound.
If I stuck with road tyres only, are some known to be better at handling the heat/stress than others? Michelin PS2's for instance?
With camber ajust top mounts easy to change for track, lots of the csl guys ran 3.5 or so for track knock it back for road.
I hammered fronts when I ran wallowamayic stock M3 set up, the lardy bm just mullered them as it keeled over so much, with decent suspension & decent geo & the wear was so much reduced.
If you keep the stock wallowy soft M suspension you will always hammer fronts regardless.
As a road tyre I got good track life from Goodyear eagle f1s, the arrow tread shaped jobbies- 888, ao48 esk, think they have changed now?
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