Worth having instructor for virgin?

[entropy]

As an armchair racing fan and owner of this since when I was about 13: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ayrton-Sennas-Principles-R... I'm clued up on things

Hate to come across as a bit arrogant but I know things like the racing line, slow in - fast out, braking in straight line, turning point, corner entry-apex-exit.

So would an instructor worth having?

[GarrettMacD]

entropy said:

As an armchair racing fan and owner of this since when I was about 13: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ayrton-Sennas-Principles-R... I'm clued up on things

Hate to come across as a bit arrogant but I know things like the racing line, slow in - fast out, braking in straight line, turning point, corner entry-apex-exit.

Eh, what you've been reading is a bit out of date. It's all about trail braking now. The 'brake in a straight line' is fairly classic stuff in racing schools though - it's to save the cars, not to make you go any faster

entropy said:

So would an instructor worth having?

Without a doubt. No matter how much you know, an instructor is the single biggest factor in you going faster and better

[A.Wang]

Without any doubt - yes.

Most of us who like cars (membership of PH is a pretty good indicator) will know about these things. You can know all the theory in the world, and memorised Senna's book back to front...but you will still benefit from having someone who's "done it" show you how to find the braking points, turn it points, teach you about car control, catching "off" moments etc.

I've always found instruction helpful - not necessarily full-on all-day "courses", but a 20/30-minute session at the start of day, and perhaps another one after lunch, to show you what you should work on during the day.

To me, the most satisfying track days are those where you know you've walked away having added something to your driving skills and knowledge.

[Munter]

Yes. Yes. And I think Yes again.

Even if it's only 1 session to show you the lines at the start of the day. It's been worth every penny to get more out of the days I've done.

[entropy]

Cheers, I'll definitely go for it.

TBH, I'm more worrried about trying not to make a complete and utter cock of my self by falling asleep with the theory lecture!

Though I will definitely will concentrate with the in-car one-on-one stuff.

[Chris71]

Yes. The other big thing is they'll show you the way round, which can be very important - apexes and braking points may seem academic, but in the real world they can make a huge difference before you even consider driving technique. I did five or six track days before I booked a tuition slot at my first evening at Bedford and he helped to get me up to speed a lot quicker.

[DiscoColin]

The moment that you actually get out on track, you are going to realise that you really don't know anywhere near as much as you thought that you did. On my first proper track day, my first ever lap was with an instructor sitting next to me (Callum Lockie, courtesy of GoldTrack and who almost certainly knows more about driving fast than I ever will) and have been a big advocate of instruction ever since. I still get one now whenever I am at an unfamiliar track and periodically to sort out the bad habits that I seem to keep reacquiring.

Whatever you think that you know, someone else always knows more. For a modest fee, they will help you to bridge that gap. And eventually you will need a better instructor.

Edited by DiscoColin on Thursday 29th April 18:35

[flemke]

GarrettMacD said:

entropy said:

As an armchair racing fan and owner of this since when I was about 13: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ayrton-Sennas-Principles-R... I'm clued up on things

Hate to come across as a bit arrogant but I know things like the racing line, slow in - fast out, braking in straight line, turning point, corner entry-apex-exit.

Eh, what you've been reading is a bit out of date. It's all about trail braking now. The 'brake in a straight line' is fairly classic stuff in racing schools though - it's to save the cars, not to make you go any faster

entropy said:

So would an instructor worth having?

Without a doubt. No matter how much you know, an instructor is the single biggest factor in you going faster and better

It's not merely a matter of saving the equipment. The classic slow-in, throttle mid-bend, fast-out technique was developed and perfected when, relative to today, tyres, brakes and engines were vastly less effective than they are today. Then, it was critical to carry speed through the bend. Now, generally, you get a better lap time by minimising your time spent getting the car turned in the bend, even if that means having a lower minimum speed in the bend.
Kids who start intensive karting at an early age sometimes succeed without much driving instruction. Adults almost certainly benefit from instruction. Just learning what to do with your eyes is counter-intuitive but must be developed.

[GarrettMacD]

flemke said:

GarrettMacD said:

entropy said:

As an armchair racing fan and owner of this since when I was about 13: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ayrton-Sennas-Principles-R... I'm clued up on things

Hate to come across as a bit arrogant but I know things like the racing line, slow in - fast out, braking in straight line, turning point, corner entry-apex-exit.

Eh, what you've been reading is a bit out of date. It's all about trail braking now. The 'brake in a straight line' is fairly classic stuff in racing schools though - it's to save the cars, not to make you go any faster

entropy said:

So would an instructor worth having?

Without a doubt. No matter how much you know, an instructor is the single biggest factor in you going faster and better

It's not merely a matter of saving the equipment. The classic slow-in, throttle mid-bend, fast-out technique was developed and perfected when, relative to today, tyres, brakes and engines were vastly less effective than they are today. Then, it was critical to carry speed through the bend. Now, generally, you get a better lap time by minimising your time spent getting the car turned in the bend, even if that means having a lower minimum speed in the bend..

I agree with what you're saying, but in most racing schools and 'experiences' the number 1 goal is to get the driver at something approaching a fast speed, but with as little chance as possible of them damaging the car.

I spent a week at a Jim Russell school in the 90's being told to brake in a straight line, and then when I actually got to go racing in the 2000's it took me ages to undo all of the teaching I'd already had...

Although, in fairness, the inordinate amount of time it took me to unlearn was more due to the mental capacity of the student rather than the complexity of the task

[GC8]

DiscoColin said:

The moment that you actually get out on track, you are going to realise that you really don't know anywhere near as much as you thought that you did.

This.

Pride comes before a fall...

[21TonyK]

GC8 said:

DiscoColin said:

The moment that you actually get out on track, you are going to realise that you really don't know anywhere near as much as you thought that you did.

This.

Pride comes before a fall...

So very, very true. A worthwhile book for the OP is Skip Barbers Going Faster. The brake, turn, accelerate method is covered in the first one or two chapters after which it gets a lot more interesting.

Edited by 21TonyK on Friday 30th April 07:10

[Targarama]

entropy said:

TBH, I'm more worrried about trying not to make a complete and utter cock of my self by falling asleep with the theory lecture!

TBH I'm concerned about your attitude. Unless you go for a full day's training, the classroom stuff will be minimal anyway. You will probably not know the circuit you're visiting well enough to drive around it hard - any intro discussion (lecture) will help with that. Also the 'lecture' at the start of the day is for everyone's safety, they won't want you not knowing what flags mean or when or where or how to pull over/let people pass (in a medium powered Celica you'll get around OK but lots of supposedly slower cars will be wanting to pass you).

[conanius]

Definately get instruction.

When I did cadwell park for the first time I remember doing the sighting lap, getting out of the car after and saying to my mate '****. I don't think I can go much faster than that !!' I did a few sessions and obviously a bit quicker but I lacked the confidence to take the corners with any real speed.

I got some tuition off an older guy who's first words were 'don't panic if I grab the wheel, I'm just trying to help you get a good line' ... On a track with trees, tyre walls and Armco lining the outskirts that's a bit worrying !

Bottom line? I went from probably one of the slowest cars to one of the quickest. I literally couldn't think fast enough on my own to do what he was telling me to get round that quick... After his session it transformed the day for me and was probably the best trackday I had ever done.

Get tution. It will improve your enjoyment and laptimes more than anything else

[V8mate]

entropy said:

Cheers, I'll definitely go for it.

TBH, I'm more worrried about trying not to make a complete and utter cock of my self by falling asleep with the theory lecture!

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[Chris71]

GC8 said:

DiscoColin said:

The moment that you actually get out on track, you are going to realise that you really don't know anywhere near as much as you thought that you did.

This.

Pride comes before a fall...

That too. Even the sighting laps can seem a bit daunting if you haven't been on track for a while.

[Targarama]

Chris71 said:

GC8 said:

DiscoColin said:

The moment that you actually get out on track, you are going to realise that you really don't know anywhere near as much as you thought that you did.

This.

Pride comes before a fall...

That too. Even the sighting laps can seem a bit daunting if you haven't been on track for a while.

I remember my first sighting laps at places like Oulton and Cadwell (now my favourites tracks) - I was thinking 'hey slow down this is a sighting lap' and I've not got a slow car

[Glyn84]

Another vote here for using an instructor.

I'd been playing PC racing simulations for over 10 years (note simulation and not Playstation generation) and done a fair bit of karting too and thought I knew how to follow the racing line and the theory to drive a track. When I first got on track in real life the sims and karting helped, but in comparison I was all over the place as it is surprisingly different. I got some proper lengthy instruction and he got me going in the right direction and I was having a lot more fun too.

Remember you can go a second a lap quicker by spending £3k on the car, or £300 on some instruction.

[21TonyK]

Glyn84 said:

Remember you can go a second a lap quicker by spending £3k on the car, or £300 on some instruction.

I must have spent about £1000 on instruction to counter the weight added by £2K of "improvements" to the car

[DarioT]

Driver under instruction video.

good to come back in to the pits and then discuss the laps just completed using something like Circuit Tools (synchronised video and data).

instructor can then provide the pointers and then go out and put the lessons learned to use on the track.

http://vimeo.com/11366563


Dario

[Targarama]

DarioT said:

Driver under instruction video.

Classic example of how it looked relatively easy to go at medium speed, but as soon as this guy started to push it a bit he locked up and generally got out of shape. This car was nowhere near its limits with an expert driver - but this chap was still learning. He had problems arriving at corners too fast after passing someone, experience helps with this. The intstructor kept him calm and stopped him exceeding his abilities too much.