whats a must for a track day car?
Discussion
Hi guys
i have finally started on building myself a track days car./ maybe europe runs, basicly a car thats for me to enjoy and go flat out in with out either my g/f or baby in!
the car is a rover 220 coupe as i am doing this with my brother and he has donated it to the cause so free car!
now we want to be safe as possible and also have the best setup car as possible too,but we have a small budget really.
the plan was get a full cage,seam weld the shell, buckets, fire extinguisher, kill switches inside and out and the battery in the boot in a fiber glass box. also as we where going to strip it out a fire wall as well.
now looking into this as you well know this is going to cost lots of money,£600 just for the cage as there rare to find.
what on that list is a must and what would be useful?
thanks guys
i have finally started on building myself a track days car./ maybe europe runs, basicly a car thats for me to enjoy and go flat out in with out either my g/f or baby in!
the car is a rover 220 coupe as i am doing this with my brother and he has donated it to the cause so free car!
now we want to be safe as possible and also have the best setup car as possible too,but we have a small budget really.
the plan was get a full cage,seam weld the shell, buckets, fire extinguisher, kill switches inside and out and the battery in the boot in a fiber glass box. also as we where going to strip it out a fire wall as well.
now looking into this as you well know this is going to cost lots of money,£600 just for the cage as there rare to find.
what on that list is a must and what would be useful?
thanks guys
Better brakes - you can either go for the cheaper ZS180/ZR160 brake upgrade (282mm vented discs) for the fronts or if you want there are plenty of 4/6 pot upgrades for those cars.
Tyres - the only part of the car in contact with the track and therefore the most important part to help increase grip and therefore speed.
Suspension, springs at least but try for better shocks too.
That's what I would consider must haves imho.
What engine/gearbox is it? If you have the PG1 gearbox then a LSD will help you get the power down. Either a cheaper Torsen diff from one of the Turbo cars (220, 620, 820) or go for a Quaife lsd but they are pricey!
Tyres - the only part of the car in contact with the track and therefore the most important part to help increase grip and therefore speed.
Suspension, springs at least but try for better shocks too.
That's what I would consider must haves imho.
What engine/gearbox is it? If you have the PG1 gearbox then a LSD will help you get the power down. Either a cheaper Torsen diff from one of the Turbo cars (220, 620, 820) or go for a Quaife lsd but they are pricey!
)well the car is going to have new brakes zs 180/ti setup as been looking at tf 160 ap setup and the brembo setup but after having a zs180 and the fact i want the car under a ton anyway there be upto the job.
brakes are going to be
front refurbed ti calipers, black diamond discs
, ds2500, braided lines.
rear black dimond discs and b/d perditor pads. all with decent 5.1 dot fluid.
also the car will be fully polly bushed as most the bushes are gone.
also i either have some mk2 zs180 wheels im going to put some track day hancok tyres on or find some light weight wheels cheap.
as for the lsd its very high on my list but we will be trying to bung a turbo lump in next year running about 300bhp and the lsd box will be put in it also with strenghted gearbox.
the car is going to be stripped right down next weekend so all the weight will be out.
so seam welding isn't worth it and should just look for a cage, buckets and harness and f/e?
do all these things need to be fia approved or isn't it worth it?
brakes are going to be
front refurbed ti calipers, black diamond discs
, ds2500, braided lines.
rear black dimond discs and b/d perditor pads. all with decent 5.1 dot fluid.
also the car will be fully polly bushed as most the bushes are gone.
also i either have some mk2 zs180 wheels im going to put some track day hancok tyres on or find some light weight wheels cheap.
as for the lsd its very high on my list but we will be trying to bung a turbo lump in next year running about 300bhp and the lsd box will be put in it also with strenghted gearbox.
the car is going to be stripped right down next weekend so all the weight will be out.
so seam welding isn't worth it and should just look for a cage, buckets and harness and f/e?
do all these things need to be fia approved or isn't it worth it?
Would you not be best starting with a 'better' base car? I think you may struggle getting track parts for something like that. Even if not, the cost to turn it into a decent track car (cage, brakes, tyres, seats, etc) will be roughly the same no matter what car you start with, however a track-prepped 205 GTi/325 would be a better track day proposition I think at the end of it.
Don't recall ever seeing one of these on a track day.
Don't recall ever seeing one of these on a track day.
weight reduction is the key but i find susspension is a must as with the back end having little weight can make it a little to light and twitchy .
brakes
susspension
seat
tires
i wouldnt worry to much about power get the setup you like and get confident with the car before sticking power in as this will slow you down if you cant use it to full potential .
before you start look at whats avalible for the car and look into its weak area
brakes
susspension
seat
tires
i wouldnt worry to much about power get the setup you like and get confident with the car before sticking power in as this will slow you down if you cant use it to full potential .
before you start look at whats avalible for the car and look into its weak area
Pitbull - have you ever heard of DaveV6's MG ZS?
He had his turned into a serious track toy, 6-pots, custom aluminium suspension, lsd, polybushed, slick tyres, 300bhp Audi 1.8T engine (much lighter than the rover 2.0 and easier to get more power, also mated to the PG1 gearbox). I think stripped out it weighed around 920kg's. I'd imagine the Coupe may weigh a similar amount and maybe even the audi engine may fit... ;-)
Credit to Martin Reyland for the Audi conversion by the way - awesome beast!
He had his turned into a serious track toy, 6-pots, custom aluminium suspension, lsd, polybushed, slick tyres, 300bhp Audi 1.8T engine (much lighter than the rover 2.0 and easier to get more power, also mated to the PG1 gearbox). I think stripped out it weighed around 920kg's. I'd imagine the Coupe may weigh a similar amount and maybe even the audi engine may fit... ;-)
Credit to Martin Reyland for the Audi conversion by the way - awesome beast!
I've had a few Rovers and I would do the following;
GBE Boost valve rather than the standard BMV, give you a solid 12 psi (no more or you risk melting pistons, boost cut is set to 1 bar by the ECU) earlier in the rev range.
Full refresh of all bushes with polybushes, greatly increases steering feel. Also the gear linkage, make sure the bushes are good or there can be a lot of slop, some people modify a steering UJ to fit here.
Some reasonable coilovers/shocks.
Good coolant system or can suffer with overheating on track, I would avoid using a front mounted intercooler for this reason with the standard rad, stick the the T25 and standard IC to begin with.
Strut brace between the rear and front turrets and the lower rear suspension arm inner mounts.
The standard front brakes are terrible, wouldn't last one lap, don't waste your money on uprated discs/pads for these, go straight for the ZR/ZS front brake setup or larger!
Brembo front brake conversion kit using the 406 Coupe brembo calipers and 320mm 1 piece discs developed by a friend, very reasonable cost, ~£250 for the brackets/discs/fitting parts/instructions, just add calipers/pads. These are almost identical to the AP setup used on the Roversport cars but without the rarity/worrying about rebuilding calipers as the Brembo ones have proper dust shields etc.
Otherwise the ZR160/ZS180 front calipers work quite well, the rear calipers off these are larger than the standard ones fitted so worth hunting down too, 260mm instead of 240mm iirc.
17" wheels to suit with decent tyres.
Cage if you can get it as the coupe shell isn't very stiff.
The PG1 gearbox as fitted to the coupe should as standard have a Torsen type A differential, however these were prone to failure and in many cases were replaced with a simple open diff. Make sure it pulls you around a bend, otherwise you may not have one! The later type B diffs were much more robust, these were generally found in the 820 Vitesse, the 620Ti but I have seen them in the 220 coupe and hatch turbos as Rover did replace some under warranty.
Avoid wheelspinning the car and make sure you have the correct oil 2.2L MTF94 in the gearbox and you shouldn't have too many problems. A replacement set of gearbox bearings and seals will set you back £180 if you can fit them yourself!
Have a look on the Rover Coupe owners club for more information on the "Roversport" cars which ran a race series in the mid 90's some are still around and come up on the market today for ~5k.
http://forum.rover-coupe.com/
Couple of photos of my last Rover, bought with only 48k on the clock.
I know the wheel wasn't perfectly round, poor roads and low profile tyres!
GBE Boost valve rather than the standard BMV, give you a solid 12 psi (no more or you risk melting pistons, boost cut is set to 1 bar by the ECU) earlier in the rev range.
Full refresh of all bushes with polybushes, greatly increases steering feel. Also the gear linkage, make sure the bushes are good or there can be a lot of slop, some people modify a steering UJ to fit here.
Some reasonable coilovers/shocks.
Good coolant system or can suffer with overheating on track, I would avoid using a front mounted intercooler for this reason with the standard rad, stick the the T25 and standard IC to begin with.
Strut brace between the rear and front turrets and the lower rear suspension arm inner mounts.
The standard front brakes are terrible, wouldn't last one lap, don't waste your money on uprated discs/pads for these, go straight for the ZR/ZS front brake setup or larger!
Brembo front brake conversion kit using the 406 Coupe brembo calipers and 320mm 1 piece discs developed by a friend, very reasonable cost, ~£250 for the brackets/discs/fitting parts/instructions, just add calipers/pads. These are almost identical to the AP setup used on the Roversport cars but without the rarity/worrying about rebuilding calipers as the Brembo ones have proper dust shields etc.
Otherwise the ZR160/ZS180 front calipers work quite well, the rear calipers off these are larger than the standard ones fitted so worth hunting down too, 260mm instead of 240mm iirc.
17" wheels to suit with decent tyres.
Cage if you can get it as the coupe shell isn't very stiff.
The PG1 gearbox as fitted to the coupe should as standard have a Torsen type A differential, however these were prone to failure and in many cases were replaced with a simple open diff. Make sure it pulls you around a bend, otherwise you may not have one! The later type B diffs were much more robust, these were generally found in the 820 Vitesse, the 620Ti but I have seen them in the 220 coupe and hatch turbos as Rover did replace some under warranty.
Avoid wheelspinning the car and make sure you have the correct oil 2.2L MTF94 in the gearbox and you shouldn't have too many problems. A replacement set of gearbox bearings and seals will set you back £180 if you can fit them yourself!
Have a look on the Rover Coupe owners club for more information on the "Roversport" cars which ran a race series in the mid 90's some are still around and come up on the market today for ~5k.
http://forum.rover-coupe.com/
Couple of photos of my last Rover, bought with only 48k on the clock.
I know the wheel wasn't perfectly round, poor roads and low profile tyres!
Edited by Berger on Wednesday 16th March 22:15
Edited by Berger on Wednesday 16th March 22:16
I'd look at the safety things first - why - well track days are not marshalled by the orange boys & girls.
Yes make the car quicker but always remember that if you do stuff it the track day people will not have the same level of skill/response time as the the marshals at a test/race.
Sorry to be negative but having lost a good friend at a non marshalled day I feel I should add to this thread.
Yes make the car quicker but always remember that if you do stuff it the track day people will not have the same level of skill/response time as the the marshals at a test/race.
Sorry to be negative but having lost a good friend at a non marshalled day I feel I should add to this thread.
yeah i know dave v6 we have had quite a few chats.
if i was doing this in my zs180 i would have gone for a different engine but as its a cheap easy swap for the 220 coupe then thats more the ticket.
as for not seeing them on a track check out dunlop rover race series and andy nicoals rovers.
back in the 1st 3 totb events rover turbos pretty much rules the fwd catergory.
people also think fiat coupe turbos are rubbish track cars but win tobt fwd year in year out and also time attack fwd all the time!
im sure it would be a god base car.id say its a better base car than a 205 gti and i have driven 205 gti's and as for the bmw its not really tuneable and not my thing. id get another skyline or something if i was going for a heavy powerful track car again.
if i was doing this in my zs180 i would have gone for a different engine but as its a cheap easy swap for the 220 coupe then thats more the ticket.
as for not seeing them on a track check out dunlop rover race series and andy nicoals rovers.
back in the 1st 3 totb events rover turbos pretty much rules the fwd catergory.
people also think fiat coupe turbos are rubbish track cars but win tobt fwd year in year out and also time attack fwd all the time!
im sure it would be a god base car.id say its a better base car than a 205 gti and i have driven 205 gti's and as for the bmw its not really tuneable and not my thing. id get another skyline or something if i was going for a heavy powerful track car again.
stabbed rat said:
Surely the order of the day is sticky rubber and get on track? Then if you find it lacking, change things to suit?
+1We've started doing trackdays this year, tyres should be your first priority and don't use cheapo 'Ditchfinder Generals' - get some reasonable quality rubber even if it's part-worn.
Give the car a normal service (oil change, brake fluid change, plugs, filters, etc) then get yourself on track and get to know the car. You'll quickly discover which bits you need to do next. My money's on stiffer/lower springs.
reliability
tyres
big front brakes brakes
fit proper harness these will hold you in the standard bucket seats fine.
then look at how you can dial out the understeer.
Then once the above is done start messing about with other things that are niether here nor there really as its only a track day car..
tyres
big front brakes brakes
fit proper harness these will hold you in the standard bucket seats fine.
then look at how you can dial out the understeer.
Then once the above is done start messing about with other things that are niether here nor there really as its only a track day car..
ok guys thats what il do first.
il service the car and pick out worn parts,i know most the bushes are gone so il replace them and as the brakes are shot il replace them for better ones.
harnesses are cheap so i can do that easy enough.
il be putting some decent track day tyres on as well.
il service the car and pick out worn parts,i know most the bushes are gone so il replace them and as the brakes are shot il replace them for better ones.
harnesses are cheap so i can do that easy enough.
il be putting some decent track day tyres on as well.
powellypowelly said:
+1
We've started doing trackdays this year, tyres should be your first priority and don't use cheapo 'Ditchfinder Generals' - get some reasonable quality rubber even if it's part-worn.
-1We've started doing trackdays this year, tyres should be your first priority and don't use cheapo 'Ditchfinder Generals' - get some reasonable quality rubber even if it's part-worn.
If you're relatively new to trackdays then forget about pouring money into sticky tyres, upgrades etc - get out there and learn to control the car and slide around on road tyres. Also forget about trying to have the fastest car on track, just go and have fun.
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 29th March 07:06
skeggysteve said:
I'd look at the safety things first - why - well track days are not marshalled by the orange boys & girls.
Yes make the car quicker but always remember that if you do stuff it the track day people will not have the same level of skill/response time as the the marshals at a test/race.
Sorry to be negative but having lost a good friend at a non marshalled day I feel I should add to this thread.
Sorry for your loss, but need to point out the fact that at the circuit I work at we are all msa graded marshals most are grade "expearienced Marshal" or Post chief some like myself are also Rescue licence holders we also have some specialised bike marshals including the chief IO for BSB. We do more days per year and more training than most of the weekend only marshals in fact many of us train the weekend Marshals. We also get to use the skills we train for on a regular basis like say putting out fires - Im up to 5 this year already all thankfully with no injury.Yes make the car quicker but always remember that if you do stuff it the track day people will not have the same level of skill/response time as the the marshals at a test/race.
Sorry to be negative but having lost a good friend at a non marshalled day I feel I should add to this thread.
If you think though the response time at say brands is under a minute in the event of a major incident. Msa test sessions are marshalled with the same number of track marshals as a track day.
Like I began with though very sorry for the loss of your friend.
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