past employer looking overpayment back
Discussion
I used to work for NHS and left a while ago. I received a letter stating that I had been over paid by £4k and they want it back now!
Few issues that I think may effect the outcome of this-
1. Letter I received states I left 6 weeks before I actually did,(wasn't working but contract states I am entitled to 6 weeks notice which I wasn't asked to work and I resigned facing a disciplinary but not sacked).
2. There is no breakdown of how exactly I owe them this money, only a request for a cheque at my earliest convenience.
3. I recieved a final payslip but no money into my account.
4. It was very reasonable to me that the 2 months pay they want to claim back was my 6 weeks notice plus remaining holidays pay.
5. The money is long gone.
6. I am assuming they are including my Tax and national insurance in the amount they want back,(take home pay was about 1300 not 2k) even though it is still the same tax year so surely they still retain that money for for the tax man at the end of the year?
realistically what am I going to do, I sent them a letter today asking for a breakdown and explanation of how I owe them this money, and explaining the errors in their letter (no payment in lieu of notice and holiday pay was made). I am unemployed at present and unable to claim any benefits, I will start new job in a week but the pay is 13k down on last salary so not gonna be flush to pay off w
kers that I hate, money that I dont feel I owe them.
Few issues that I think may effect the outcome of this-
1. Letter I received states I left 6 weeks before I actually did,(wasn't working but contract states I am entitled to 6 weeks notice which I wasn't asked to work and I resigned facing a disciplinary but not sacked).
2. There is no breakdown of how exactly I owe them this money, only a request for a cheque at my earliest convenience.
3. I recieved a final payslip but no money into my account.
4. It was very reasonable to me that the 2 months pay they want to claim back was my 6 weeks notice plus remaining holidays pay.
5. The money is long gone.
6. I am assuming they are including my Tax and national insurance in the amount they want back,(take home pay was about 1300 not 2k) even though it is still the same tax year so surely they still retain that money for for the tax man at the end of the year?
realistically what am I going to do, I sent them a letter today asking for a breakdown and explanation of how I owe them this money, and explaining the errors in their letter (no payment in lieu of notice and holiday pay was made). I am unemployed at present and unable to claim any benefits, I will start new job in a week but the pay is 13k down on last salary so not gonna be flush to pay off w
kers that I hate, money that I dont feel I owe them.Did they tell you not to work the 6 weeks notice?
Not wanting to pry too much, but what was the disciplinary about, and why did you resign rather than face it?
I'm thinking, is there a case for constructive dismissal? You have three months from leaving to lodge this with ET.
When did you finish working?
How long has it taken them to ask for the money back?
There could (but not definitely so) be a case that you had reasonable expectation that the amounts paid was correct, and therefore you have spent the money.
You have acted correctly in the first instance of asking for clarification.
Not wanting to pry too much, but what was the disciplinary about, and why did you resign rather than face it?
I'm thinking, is there a case for constructive dismissal? You have three months from leaving to lodge this with ET.
When did you finish working?
How long has it taken them to ask for the money back?
There could (but not definitely so) be a case that you had reasonable expectation that the amounts paid was correct, and therefore you have spent the money.
You have acted correctly in the first instance of asking for clarification.
6 weeks notice is in my contract regardless of who terminates the relationship.
I wasnt asked to work it as I was suspended without prejudice at the time of resigning.
I already had a final written from 2 years ago for accessing this site too much in work so knew what the outcome would be, thought Id use the 6 weeks grace to find another job rather than go through humiliation and gut wrenching cringing of my colleagues finding out and me being their main gossip point again.
My sister is trying to convince me that it was constructive dismissal as I was pushed and pushed since disciplinary 2years ago that they were unable to sack me for but resented this, and were looking for another chance to dismiss me.
I made a recording error, no harm came of it and I corrected it myself when I realised a week later, rather than owning up and informing my manager.
I wasnt asked to work it as I was suspended without prejudice at the time of resigning.
I already had a final written from 2 years ago for accessing this site too much in work so knew what the outcome would be, thought Id use the 6 weeks grace to find another job rather than go through humiliation and gut wrenching cringing of my colleagues finding out and me being their main gossip point again.
My sister is trying to convince me that it was constructive dismissal as I was pushed and pushed since disciplinary 2years ago that they were unable to sack me for but resented this, and were looking for another chance to dismiss me.
I made a recording error, no harm came of it and I corrected it myself when I realised a week later, rather than owning up and informing my manager.
Decky_Q said:
3. I recieved a final payslip but no money into my account.
How was the alleged £4K paid too you, then? Was the payslip for the amount in question (less tax etc?). Maybe they just think they've paid you, but in fact didn't.Decky_Q said:
6 weeks notice is in my contract regardless of who terminates the relationship.
Well, yes, but you don't get it if you mutually agree an earlier leaving date.The letter states that they continued to pay me for 2 months after they should have. The dates mentioned do not include the payslip that I wasnt paid for but do mention my contracted notice period.
I did not say that I was resigning effective immediately, nor did i agree to give up my right to payment in lieu of notice.
I did not say that I was resigning effective immediately, nor did i agree to give up my right to payment in lieu of notice.
Decky_Q said:
The letter states that they continued to pay me for 2 months after they should have.
..and did they?Decky_Q said:
I did not say that I was resigning effective immediately, nor did i agree to give up my right to payment in lieu of notice.
What did you say in your letter?It could be that the notice period doesn't apply if you resign while suspended.
I suggest you book a free consultation with a local solicitor who specialises in employment law and take copies of everything you have with you. If you cannot find a local solicitor willing to give you a free half hour (a lot do give this), then book an appointment with your local CAB instead.
Here on PH we can give generic advice but would need to see all the communications before offering specific advice.
Here on PH we can give generic advice but would need to see all the communications before offering specific advice.
They owed me 6 weeks pay in lieu of notice plus holiday pay so I took it that the 2 payments I received were for this as the amounts should be near identical (6weeks+3weeks holidays).
There is no clause in my contract to say that notice is not required when suspended, and the suspension was 'without prejudice' therefore I cannot be put at any disadvantage by being suspended, and I had not been proven to have done anything wrong, nor was a file presented to any disciplinary panel for a ruling to be made.
There is no clause in my contract to say that notice is not required when suspended, and the suspension was 'without prejudice' therefore I cannot be put at any disadvantage by being suspended, and I had not been proven to have done anything wrong, nor was a file presented to any disciplinary panel for a ruling to be made.
Decky_Q said:
Yeah I think solicitor will be the answer, pistonheads gives good advice regards road traffic law but it seems this is not the area of expertise so gonna have to go to a professional.
Thanks for reading and trying to help guys.
To be fair we can't see your contract of employment, your resignation letter, the letter from your employer, your paycheck that you didn't get paid on etc etc. It's not exactly a lot to go on! And it is an extremely complicated area of law.Thanks for reading and trying to help guys.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Did you give them 6 weeks notice in your resignation letter, or did you resign with immediate effect which they accepted?
This is the key question - if you said you didn't want to work, then you weren't entitled to pay in lieu of notice. If they ASKED whether you wanted to work, probably the same thing. If they TOLD you not to come in, then you're entitled to the money.Slightly less relevant, but re: the disciplinary on file - IIRC ACAS best practice is to only keep written warnings on file for 18 months. Worth a call to ACAS to ask them (a) where you stand with the money; and (b) about the disciplinary.
Constructive dismissal - unlikely - you'd need a lot of evidence over the 2-year time period. If you've not got a diary of dates, people and quotes, then I'd suggest forget it.
Re: £4k - definitely right to ask for the analysis. As it's public sector and it's taxpayers money that they're spending (i.e. on solicitors letters and possibly legal action to recover the money), you may have a fight on your hands. Best to get some proper advice as to where you stand early-on - if you've not got a case, then try to negotiate a longer-term repayment period with them, rather than get a CCJ against your name (I THINK that would be the outcome, may be wrong).
So:-
- speak to ACAS;
- speak to a solicitor - use the free (half) hour if possible.
SmoothCriminal said:
err yes you can gross misconduct.
Every job I have been in gross misconduct was immediate dismissal. And spending too much time on a website?What I was trying to get at is that the OP is a repeated offender who just didn't listen to his warnings or he isn't painting the full picture, and so I can't sympathise with the angle of not wanting to stay at work or that he felt his employer was pushing to get rid of him. I know the OP wasn't after sympathy, but it just smacks of not telling all....
Dismissal is the ultimate sanction, and for every situation a lesser sanction could be chosen. For instance our work policy states that instead of dismissal you can be suspended without pay.
But, the sanctions available are not in question here, its whether the chap is due payment.
As far as that goes the crux is when his employment was terminated.
If he was due six weeks notice, I would have expected any disciplinary procedure to continue if the six weeks notice was to stand.
As suggested a solicitor is a good idea, or at the very least CAB, but I feel that a court case is in the offing to establish what should happen.
But, the sanctions available are not in question here, its whether the chap is due payment.
As far as that goes the crux is when his employment was terminated.
If he was due six weeks notice, I would have expected any disciplinary procedure to continue if the six weeks notice was to stand.
As suggested a solicitor is a good idea, or at the very least CAB, but I feel that a court case is in the offing to establish what should happen.
The final written I had was because it was tallied up over 2 years and Id spent 340hours on here so was gonna be sacked but made an arguement that that there was no guidance given on what acceptable internet use was etc etc so made it that I repaid the hours working free overtime and got another chance, only I didnt really, they saw red that Id used a technicality to remain, and then had weekly reviews where gossip, lies and everything totally unfounded was brought up against me as if it was fact.
I did keep a record of repeated sexist remarks, including my 2 superiors telling me that my perfectly qualified friend shouldnt bother applying for a job as they definitely wont be hiring a male, also a male staff member being singled out at a large staff meeting and being told that if anyone was made redundant it would be him because he was a male plus many many more incidents of similar nature.
I didnt tell my manager about the error because I was in fear of losing my job, it would have been blown out of all proportion and I would have been back before disciplinary again so i took a risk, tried to cover it up and got caught.
now you have the background, I didnt write previously because I didnt feel it was relevant. Solicitor has looked at docs and says I have good grounds, but will wait to see their reply with breakdown. May have to repay some money if notice plus hols doesnt quite cover the overpayment but can make an offer of 15p per week if I wish and its up to them to negotiate from there.
I did keep a record of repeated sexist remarks, including my 2 superiors telling me that my perfectly qualified friend shouldnt bother applying for a job as they definitely wont be hiring a male, also a male staff member being singled out at a large staff meeting and being told that if anyone was made redundant it would be him because he was a male plus many many more incidents of similar nature.
I didnt tell my manager about the error because I was in fear of losing my job, it would have been blown out of all proportion and I would have been back before disciplinary again so i took a risk, tried to cover it up and got caught.
now you have the background, I didnt write previously because I didnt feel it was relevant. Solicitor has looked at docs and says I have good grounds, but will wait to see their reply with breakdown. May have to repay some money if notice plus hols doesnt quite cover the overpayment but can make an offer of 15p per week if I wish and its up to them to negotiate from there.
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