School Careers advice..........Dodgy IMHO !!!
Discussion
So my daughter has decided not to stay on in the 6th Form of our Local very good school (Sorry Academy), where quite frankly she is likely to get 10 A*'s at GCSE, but she wants to go to a 6th Form College because they have a better Maths and Music Department. Now I've no idea where Maths, Further Maths, History and Music takes you, but she says "A Degree in Maths, and then banking or insurance"... whatever as long as you enjoy it, and there's some potential for a positive outcome.. Now one of her friends is what you'd call Mediocre, average, not stupid, and will doubtless get at least 5 GSCE's at grade C if there's a following wind.
So she'd decided to go to the local technical college, and do a more vocational course, something to do with Tourism, but if you look at the stats, they all end up with a job in a hotel, where the hard working one's eventually burn out before they reach senior management.....
Now, they all go to the Schools sixth form open evening, where my daughter is told that she shouldn't study music, because it won't be given any 'credence' by 'good' universities... to which I ask whether Maths, Further Maths and History might be sufficient for any number of USEFUL courses, and whether Music can't be studied, just because she loves it, and she's pretty good at it. They try the hard sell a bit more and the poor girl comes home totally confused. We've managed to convince her that it's her life, her decision, but if we thought her original idea was wrong we would have told her, and discussed it.
She is continuing on plan.
Now to the friend. The hard sell is that this mediocre girl, has been told that she is university material, that she must come to the sixth form, and study English (Which she'll scrape a C in if she's lucky) .
It's a con. These people of this now academy, have sales targets, they have seats to fill with bums, and have no morals in taking people down the wrong career path, and yes she'll eventually end up at the University of Central Lancashire nee Preston Poly, and scrape a 3rd in something that will get her a foot in the bottom of a career in the hotel industry, having delayed for 3 years but with a pointless degree and a large loan. But the parents have been 'complimented' and given a vision, which isn't right for her, but nobody seems to offer HONEST advice anymore.
I might be wrong.
So she'd decided to go to the local technical college, and do a more vocational course, something to do with Tourism, but if you look at the stats, they all end up with a job in a hotel, where the hard working one's eventually burn out before they reach senior management.....
Now, they all go to the Schools sixth form open evening, where my daughter is told that she shouldn't study music, because it won't be given any 'credence' by 'good' universities... to which I ask whether Maths, Further Maths and History might be sufficient for any number of USEFUL courses, and whether Music can't be studied, just because she loves it, and she's pretty good at it. They try the hard sell a bit more and the poor girl comes home totally confused. We've managed to convince her that it's her life, her decision, but if we thought her original idea was wrong we would have told her, and discussed it.
She is continuing on plan.
Now to the friend. The hard sell is that this mediocre girl, has been told that she is university material, that she must come to the sixth form, and study English (Which she'll scrape a C in if she's lucky) .
It's a con. These people of this now academy, have sales targets, they have seats to fill with bums, and have no morals in taking people down the wrong career path, and yes she'll eventually end up at the University of Central Lancashire nee Preston Poly, and scrape a 3rd in something that will get her a foot in the bottom of a career in the hotel industry, having delayed for 3 years but with a pointless degree and a large loan. But the parents have been 'complimented' and given a vision, which isn't right for her, but nobody seems to offer HONEST advice anymore.
I might be wrong.
New POD said:
So my daughter has decided not to stay on in the 6th Form of our Local very good school (Sorry Academy), where quite frankly she is likely to get 10 A*'s at GCSE, but she wants to go to a 6th Form College because they have a better Maths and Music Department. Now I've no idea where Maths, Further Maths, History and Music takes you, but she says "A Degree in Maths, and then banking or insurance"... whatever as long as you enjoy it, and there's some potential for a positive outcome.. Now one of her friends is what you'd call Mediocre, average, not stupid, and will doubtless get at least 5 GSCE's at grade C if there's a following wind.
So she'd decided to go to the local technical college, and do a more vocational course, something to do with Tourism, but if you look at the stats, they all end up with a job in a hotel, where the hard working one's eventually burn out before they reach senior management.....
Now, they all go to the Schools sixth form open evening, where my daughter is told that she shouldn't study music, because it won't be given any 'credence' by 'good' universities... to which I ask whether Maths, Further Maths and History might be sufficient for any number of USEFUL courses, and whether Music can't be studied, just because she loves it, and she's pretty good at it. They try the hard sell a bit more and the poor girl comes home totally confused. We've managed to convince her that it's her life, her decision, but if we thought her original idea was wrong we would have told her, and discussed it.
She is continuing on plan.
Now to the friend. The hard sell is that this mediocre girl, has been told that she is university material, that she must come to the sixth form, and study English (Which she'll scrape a C in if she's lucky) .
It's a con. These people of this now academy, have sales targets, they have seats to fill with bums, and have no morals in taking people down the wrong career path, and yes she'll eventually end up at the University of Central Lancashire nee Preston Poly, and scrape a 3rd in something that will get her a foot in the bottom of a career in the hotel industry, having delayed for 3 years but with a pointless degree and a large loan. But the parents have been 'complimented' and given a vision, which isn't right for her, but nobody seems to offer HONEST advice anymore.
I might be wrong.
InterestingSo she'd decided to go to the local technical college, and do a more vocational course, something to do with Tourism, but if you look at the stats, they all end up with a job in a hotel, where the hard working one's eventually burn out before they reach senior management.....
Now, they all go to the Schools sixth form open evening, where my daughter is told that she shouldn't study music, because it won't be given any 'credence' by 'good' universities... to which I ask whether Maths, Further Maths and History might be sufficient for any number of USEFUL courses, and whether Music can't be studied, just because she loves it, and she's pretty good at it. They try the hard sell a bit more and the poor girl comes home totally confused. We've managed to convince her that it's her life, her decision, but if we thought her original idea was wrong we would have told her, and discussed it.
She is continuing on plan.
Now to the friend. The hard sell is that this mediocre girl, has been told that she is university material, that she must come to the sixth form, and study English (Which she'll scrape a C in if she's lucky) .
It's a con. These people of this now academy, have sales targets, they have seats to fill with bums, and have no morals in taking people down the wrong career path, and yes she'll eventually end up at the University of Central Lancashire nee Preston Poly, and scrape a 3rd in something that will get her a foot in the bottom of a career in the hotel industry, having delayed for 3 years but with a pointless degree and a large loan. But the parents have been 'complimented' and given a vision, which isn't right for her, but nobody seems to offer HONEST advice anymore.
I might be wrong.
I doubt they'd try that at say the Unity City Academy in Middlesbrough... Probably isn't a single child you could talk up to uni level with a straight face.
As for music, I'd be tempted to get her to learn her favourite instrument or whatever as an extra curricular... to be honest with things like art, music, photography I think they are things you either have the knack for or you don't and its better to simply teach yourself. I wouldn't of thought many serious universities would take music... but it depends on the course being applied to. Engineering and Sciences for example will explicitly state maths and a science and grades. When I applied for engineering I had to have maths and physics and I can't remember what stipulation there was on the third A-level, but Im sure if it was music I may well of been over looked for someone with similar grades but with a more relevant subject. As it happens I had electronics so I got in to a fully booked engineering course. Still there is no substitute for doing what makes you happy and to hell with the rest of it.
Pretty bad about the other girl though... she sounds like she'd be much better off with a more hands on approach to learning a trade or skill instead of being sat in a lecture theatre listening to some jobs worth go on about the family love circle. (yes this was actually a slide I saw being presented to a class at my uni, while I was being nosey waiting for my lectures)
As an aside.... My careers advice from secondary was truly shocking. I mean it says a lot about what the school and teachers thought we would amount to when the only careers advice was a one off lesson where you answer a computerised questionnaire and it spits out truly dire answers like bin man or baker.
I got sewing machine repair man!
Which I suppose is half right! I am an engineer and in this country, If I had become a sewing machine repair man I could of bought a transit van and slapped on the side Sewing machine engineer!
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 6th December 23:21
This is an inherently difficult area and 'careers advice' is rarely that due to the time it actually takes, which most organisations simply don't have. What you get is the next best thing; "this is what the majority of people like you do".
It's not easy, and even the most intelligent, driven and focussed individuals and parents will have conflicting thoughts on what to do next.
If I have any advice it would be to work your hardest, go to the best Uni you can and study the thing you have most interest in. This should give a springboard into the workplace and allow you to develop and gain experiences to shape your longer term career; how many of us are doing today what we set out to do all those years ago?
Good luck!
It's not easy, and even the most intelligent, driven and focussed individuals and parents will have conflicting thoughts on what to do next.
If I have any advice it would be to work your hardest, go to the best Uni you can and study the thing you have most interest in. This should give a springboard into the workplace and allow you to develop and gain experiences to shape your longer term career; how many of us are doing today what we set out to do all those years ago?
Good luck!
I dont put a lot of credence in "experts" or advisors, I've also never heard of anyone who wanted to be a careers advisor, know what they base their advice on or unless they know first hand what authority they have in suggesting you should or should not do something.
See what your daughter wants to do then speak to a few people actually doing the job (speaking to one person may get you a skewed opinion)
See what your daughter wants to do then speak to a few people actually doing the job (speaking to one person may get you a skewed opinion)
Otispunkmeyer said:
As for music, I'd be tempted to get her to learn her favourite instrument or whatever as an extra curricular... to be honest with things like art, music, photography I think they are things you either have the knack for or you don't and its better to simply teach yourself. I wouldn't of thought many serious universities would take music... but it depends on the course being applied to.
If it is the same as when I studied it you will find that A level music is a world away from the "easy ride" that people think that it isComposition and practical is only a part of it, there is a large chunk that is, in effect, music literature - picking apart a score and writing essays based upon it
It may bear more credence than you imagine
Cleckheatonlock said:
If it is the same as when I studied it you will find that A level music is a world away from the "easy ride" that people think that it is
Composition and practical is only a part of it, there is a large chunk that is, in effect, music literature - picking apart a score and writing essays based upon it
It may bear more credence than you imagine
I was going to comment about that too, but from another perspective. Kids don't like to do A level music as it's very hard and they'll have seen others get a B or C which messes up their otherwise straight A results.Composition and practical is only a part of it, there is a large chunk that is, in effect, music literature - picking apart a score and writing essays based upon it
It may bear more credence than you imagine
Your daughter will do well with those choices and the high end universities will all favour music over something else in the arts - Media, Photography etc... at the end of the day after a few hours of Maths and further maths shes going to need something a bit different.
As for the friend sounds like she should get out there and start working why study for tourism full time get a job in a hotel and learn the hard way if its a good employer she can do NVQ's and the like on the job she really doesn't sound like University material and shouldn't be encouraged to get herself into £30, 40,50k of debt in the hunt for a 2:2 degree in Tourism or hotel management.
As for the friend sounds like she should get out there and start working why study for tourism full time get a job in a hotel and learn the hard way if its a good employer she can do NVQ's and the like on the job she really doesn't sound like University material and shouldn't be encouraged to get herself into £30, 40,50k of debt in the hunt for a 2:2 degree in Tourism or hotel management.
This is not career advice, but why not let her do the exams she is interested in doing, that is half the battle. She will probably end up dropping one during sixth form anyway (that seems to be the norm).
My daughter was an A* maths student and the school wanted her to do it at A level so she did and dropped it after 3 months because she couldn't cope with it and my parnters daughter is a maths wizard but has had to have extra lessons to keep up - GSCE maths seems to be a massive step away from A level pure/applied maths.
Your daughter may find Music at A level very hard but if she enjoys it she might put the extra in. It may not be an employer required skill but probably a life skill.
My daughter was an A* maths student and the school wanted her to do it at A level so she did and dropped it after 3 months because she couldn't cope with it and my parnters daughter is a maths wizard but has had to have extra lessons to keep up - GSCE maths seems to be a massive step away from A level pure/applied maths.
Your daughter may find Music at A level very hard but if she enjoys it she might put the extra in. It may not be an employer required skill but probably a life skill.
I know when I was trying to get into uni to do Engineering, having English Language at A level. I did Maths, Phuysics, English. Got straight C's but that's because it was back when A levels were hard - That's what I keep telling myself anyway!
Anyway, it was looked on favourably as it was a bit unusual after hundreds of people droning through with the same old, same old. Just a thought.
Anyway, it was looked on favourably as it was a bit unusual after hundreds of people droning through with the same old, same old. Just a thought.
Look at it from the other end - what university courses might she want to do? Will her choice of A-Levels be suitable?
Further maths gets you a long way, but in my day (not *that* long ago tbh) you needed two numerate subjects, eg maths and physics, to get into a numerate degree course.
Further maths gets you a long way, but in my day (not *that* long ago tbh) you needed two numerate subjects, eg maths and physics, to get into a numerate degree course.
As has been said above, music is in no way a "soft" subject like media studies; Music theory is hard and there is a lot to learn, and it can be quite mathematical if you look at it that way.
What I will say is that it's sensible to completely ignore any careers advice at this stage. It's quite useful for those who are off to work next year, but since your daughter has got at least 5 and possibly 6 years of study ahead it's likely that whatever she wants to do now is not what she'll want to do at the end of that time.
So best to keep the options open.
If she loves music, she should consider keeping on with that - as I said it's a "hard" subject, and continues to be so at university. Once graduated there are relatively few jobs that require a degree in the field for which you have qualified (I have a friend in insurance who did engineering, law student friends who are journalists, a music graduate who is an accountant, and perversely, an accounting graduate who is a professional musician); what employers are looking for is a decent degree that shows the candidate has developed the critical skills needed for success in the workplace.
What I will say is that it's sensible to completely ignore any careers advice at this stage. It's quite useful for those who are off to work next year, but since your daughter has got at least 5 and possibly 6 years of study ahead it's likely that whatever she wants to do now is not what she'll want to do at the end of that time.
So best to keep the options open.
If she loves music, she should consider keeping on with that - as I said it's a "hard" subject, and continues to be so at university. Once graduated there are relatively few jobs that require a degree in the field for which you have qualified (I have a friend in insurance who did engineering, law student friends who are journalists, a music graduate who is an accountant, and perversely, an accounting graduate who is a professional musician); what employers are looking for is a decent degree that shows the candidate has developed the critical skills needed for success in the workplace.
Cleckheatonlock said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
As for music, I'd be tempted to get her to learn her favourite instrument or whatever as an extra curricular... to be honest with things like art, music, photography I think they are things you either have the knack for or you don't and its better to simply teach yourself. I wouldn't of thought many serious universities would take music... but it depends on the course being applied to.
If it is the same as when I studied it you will find that A level music is a world away from the "easy ride" that people think that it isComposition and practical is only a part of it, there is a large chunk that is, in effect, music literature - picking apart a score and writing essays based upon it
It may bear more credence than you imagine
In getting to a good university (Oxbridge or Russell Group), grades are more important than subject. Obviously there are limits (no Meeja Studies) but Music is not considered too soft an option. She'll be in a better position applying with a 'A/A*' in music than she would be applying with a 'B' in Economics - higher grade means more UCAS points - and points make prizes.
Also, if you look at any graduate scheme, they will (95% of the time) state a minimum number of UCAS points and a minimum of 2.1 degree; they invariably say they do not care what any of these are in.
Good grades in Maths/Further/Music/History, combined with a couple of good ECs, will stand you in good stead to get into any good university. Any reasonable subject from a good university will stand you in good stead to get onto any graduate scheme.
Bear in mind that the people giving your daughter this information will have little to no experience of post-uni job searching. Take it from somebody who has just graduated and is now doing further study - application forms auto-filter by grade/percentage - they do not auto-filter by subject. That should tell you all you need to know!
Also, if you look at any graduate scheme, they will (95% of the time) state a minimum number of UCAS points and a minimum of 2.1 degree; they invariably say they do not care what any of these are in.
Good grades in Maths/Further/Music/History, combined with a couple of good ECs, will stand you in good stead to get into any good university. Any reasonable subject from a good university will stand you in good stead to get onto any graduate scheme.
Bear in mind that the people giving your daughter this information will have little to no experience of post-uni job searching. Take it from somebody who has just graduated and is now doing further study - application forms auto-filter by grade/percentage - they do not auto-filter by subject. That should tell you all you need to know!
I don't think a music A-level really adds that much value to a university application, especially for the areas that she wants to work in.
My friend studied maths and physic at A levels, a long with 2 others that I can't remember. Then went on to study physics at a proper uni. Him and all his house mates, not sure if they were all on the same course, left uni with job offers with decent starting salaries and massive potential earnings.
It seems if you have a maths or physics degree, the well paid jobs are about.
If she's that passionate about music, she can always do it on the side and just list it as a hobby. That would look fairly impressive if she's taught herself to play instruments, and it doesn't waste an A level.
My friend studied maths and physic at A levels, a long with 2 others that I can't remember. Then went on to study physics at a proper uni. Him and all his house mates, not sure if they were all on the same course, left uni with job offers with decent starting salaries and massive potential earnings.
It seems if you have a maths or physics degree, the well paid jobs are about.
If she's that passionate about music, she can always do it on the side and just list it as a hobby. That would look fairly impressive if she's taught herself to play instruments, and it doesn't waste an A level.
Tyrion said:
Why would anyone want to take careers advice from someone who has obviously miserably failed at sorting a good career for themselves... its about as much use as asking a rabbi for pork recipes or a Jock for diet tips...
totally agreee with you here, the OP should search online for a lecturer in the maths department at one of the good local unis, drop them an email explaining the situation. Given its the holidays soon, they wont have any students and will most likely have some time to talk to the pair of you. I think the four courses potentially chosen for study at a-level will be well regarded by admissions tutors, they demonstrate a well rounded individual character.
New POD said:
She's taught herself to play trumpet aged 7, after I picked up a cheap second hand one, and is just at Grade 6 level in Trumpet, and plays in Brass, Jazz, and Wind Orchestra's and is doing GCSE Music, which she loves the composition,
I can't remember at which Grade you start earning UCAS points for Music, have a look at their website as extra points in the bag can really take the pressure off.Tumbler said:
New POD said:
She's taught herself to play trumpet aged 7, after I picked up a cheap second hand one, and is just at Grade 6 level in Trumpet, and plays in Brass, Jazz, and Wind Orchestra's and is doing GCSE Music, which she loves the composition,
I can't remember at which Grade you start earning UCAS points for Music, have a look at their website as extra points in the bag can really take the pressure off.New POD said:
Grade 8 is worth a Grade A at A level.
Grade A A level is worth 120points, a distinction in both theory and practice at Grade 8 is worth 105 points.http://www.ucas.com/students/ucas_tariff/factsheet...
How does it work now anyway - it used to be that they only took your best 3 results into account?
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