Another (but different) sacking advice thread
Discussion
Problems occured the week before Christmas when we (Mrs Toy and I ) were away on hols.
We own/run a small coffee/icecream shop and one of our staff,a 40yr old woman had a row with another staff member and actually attacked her. She had to be restrained by a 3rd lady who by chance was there at the time and has been able to give us a 3rd party account of the incident.
The woman then threatened her workmate saying she would slash her tyres and smash her windows if she reported what had happened.
The 2nd girl(victim) rang us on holiday in tears and shock explaining what had happened, this has all been verified by the 3rd lady who wittnessd the incident.
The woman has had two other similar but much less severe losses of self control and has been warned (verbally) but given the benefit of doubt both times.
Now we are in no doubt that she has to be sacked but with Christmas and us being away some time has elapsed.
The woman apparently came in to work the next day as normal while we were still away and has not had any hours since then.
She is back in on Tues and this is when we will inform her of our decision, we have had no contact as yet.
She has worked for us for about 2 years on a regular part time basis, 15-25 hours /week.
Am i correct in thinking that for this type of offence we can bypass normal diciplinary procedures and sack her straight away, ie Tue morning ?
Are there any specific things to do/ say, we plan on paying her for the Tues that she comes in for but she will be told to leave and given her P45 etc.
By the account of the incident i am expecting fireworks when i tell her and things may turn well ugly, if they do i am going to ban her from the property but is this enforcable or will i need to contact the police,
What ever happens it should be interesting,just hope no customers are in 1st thing!
Be grateful for any advice. D.
We own/run a small coffee/icecream shop and one of our staff,a 40yr old woman had a row with another staff member and actually attacked her. She had to be restrained by a 3rd lady who by chance was there at the time and has been able to give us a 3rd party account of the incident.
The woman then threatened her workmate saying she would slash her tyres and smash her windows if she reported what had happened.
The 2nd girl(victim) rang us on holiday in tears and shock explaining what had happened, this has all been verified by the 3rd lady who wittnessd the incident.
The woman has had two other similar but much less severe losses of self control and has been warned (verbally) but given the benefit of doubt both times.
Now we are in no doubt that she has to be sacked but with Christmas and us being away some time has elapsed.
The woman apparently came in to work the next day as normal while we were still away and has not had any hours since then.
She is back in on Tues and this is when we will inform her of our decision, we have had no contact as yet.
She has worked for us for about 2 years on a regular part time basis, 15-25 hours /week.
Am i correct in thinking that for this type of offence we can bypass normal diciplinary procedures and sack her straight away, ie Tue morning ?
Are there any specific things to do/ say, we plan on paying her for the Tues that she comes in for but she will be told to leave and given her P45 etc.
By the account of the incident i am expecting fireworks when i tell her and things may turn well ugly, if they do i am going to ban her from the property but is this enforcable or will i need to contact the police,
What ever happens it should be interesting,just hope no customers are in 1st thing!
Be grateful for any advice. D.
You suggest bypassing normal disciplinary procedures ? Do you have written policies in place?
If so I would definitely recommend sticking with them and not bypassing them. I would suggest the following;
Take statement from Victim/Victim submits complaint
Suspension for accused (with pay depending on your policy)
Investigation
Disciplinary Hearing
Verdict (probably dismissal for Gross Misconduct).
You might want to get advice from an Employment lawyer.
If so I would definitely recommend sticking with them and not bypassing them. I would suggest the following;
Take statement from Victim/Victim submits complaint
Suspension for accused (with pay depending on your policy)
Investigation
Disciplinary Hearing
Verdict (probably dismissal for Gross Misconduct).
You might want to get advice from an Employment lawyer.
Fighting is gross misconduct which merits dismissal but you need to go about it in the right way. Any tribunal, if it came to that, would be focussed on whether dismissal was appropriate - but that's a bit of a no brainer if it was as you describe - and the big one, did you follow proper procedure?
You need to invite her to a disciplinary hearing and investigate the whole thing properly, there are plenty of sources of information out there, google gross misconduct if you aren't in a position to get professional advice.
You need to invite her to a disciplinary hearing and investigate the whole thing properly, there are plenty of sources of information out there, google gross misconduct if you aren't in a position to get professional advice.
Thanks for advice folks, we dont really have a written procedure to deal with this kind of thing,something we maybe have to look at !
Certain things are clear tho,
She can never work here again, we have a duty to our other staff.
Employment law website states quite clearly that this situation is grounds for instant dismisal.
I have spoken again to the other (victim) girl who is not wanting to make any more fuss ie/police etc so we will not go down that route unless things get out of hand.
I have also been told (grapevine) that the woman is now planning to resign on Tues because of what happened, so i am keeping my fingers crossed and will let her have first say.
Be best for all if that is the case.
D.
Certain things are clear tho,
She can never work here again, we have a duty to our other staff.
Employment law website states quite clearly that this situation is grounds for instant dismisal.
I have spoken again to the other (victim) girl who is not wanting to make any more fuss ie/police etc so we will not go down that route unless things get out of hand.
I have also been told (grapevine) that the woman is now planning to resign on Tues because of what happened, so i am keeping my fingers crossed and will let her have first say.
Be best for all if that is the case.
D.
Get a statement from the victim. Get a statement from the 3rd party.
Call in the aggressor, get her side of things and suspend her for the morning while you make "further investigations". Do this interview AWAY from the immediate working environment if possible and certainly NOT in front of the victim.
Call her (the aggressor) back in the afternoon and tell her she is sacked for gross misconduct, based on two previous occasions and this one. Pay her any holiday pay she may have accrued, for the time she is owed over Christmas and be done with it. No payment in lieu of notice required afaik
Simple, effective and follows a reasonable procedure.
Call in the aggressor, get her side of things and suspend her for the morning while you make "further investigations". Do this interview AWAY from the immediate working environment if possible and certainly NOT in front of the victim.
Call her (the aggressor) back in the afternoon and tell her she is sacked for gross misconduct, based on two previous occasions and this one. Pay her any holiday pay she may have accrued, for the time she is owed over Christmas and be done with it. No payment in lieu of notice required afaik
Simple, effective and follows a reasonable procedure.
R TOY said:
Thanks for advice folks, we dont really have a written procedure to deal with this kind of thing,something we maybe have to look at !
Certain things are clear tho,
She can never work here again, we have a duty to our other staff.
Employment law website states quite clearly that this situation is grounds for instant dismisal.
I have spoken again to the other (victim) girl who is not wanting to make any more fuss ie/police etc so we will not go down that route unless things get out of hand.
I have also been told (grapevine) that the woman is now planning to resign on Tues because of what happened, so i am keeping my fingers crossed and will let her have first say.
Be best for all if that is the case.
D.
There isn't any such thing as (lawful) instant dismissal - as others have said, you need to follow a reasonable process - take a look at the ACAS site in advance of Tuesday.Certain things are clear tho,
She can never work here again, we have a duty to our other staff.
Employment law website states quite clearly that this situation is grounds for instant dismisal.
I have spoken again to the other (victim) girl who is not wanting to make any more fuss ie/police etc so we will not go down that route unless things get out of hand.
I have also been told (grapevine) that the woman is now planning to resign on Tues because of what happened, so i am keeping my fingers crossed and will let her have first say.
Be best for all if that is the case.
D.
Document here:
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2174
R TOY said:
Thanks for advice folks, we dont really have a written procedure to deal with this kind of thing,something we maybe have to look at !
Certain things are clear tho,
If you don't have a procedure then you are actually in breach of the 2002 Employment Act ushered in the requirement for statutory dismissal, disciplinary and grievance procedures.Certain things are clear tho,
What you have described is gross misconduct and can lead to summary dismissal but she will attempt to take you to a tribunal so make sure you are not standing on sand
This might help you -
http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/9/5/CP01_1.pdf
Edited by craigjm on Sunday 1st January 23:42
Can we please stop using the term instant dismissal - it's misleading and inaccurate.
What we are talking about here is the possibility of a summary dismissal after following a reasonable process - unless you are recommending that this falls within a very small category of cases where the employer would be justified in not following process, which I doubt would be shown to be reasonable in the circumstances.
This is as close to an "open and shut" case as you'll find, but it's still possible to mess it up.
What we are talking about here is the possibility of a summary dismissal after following a reasonable process - unless you are recommending that this falls within a very small category of cases where the employer would be justified in not following process, which I doubt would be shown to be reasonable in the circumstances.
This is as close to an "open and shut" case as you'll find, but it's still possible to mess it up.
R TOY said:
Thanks for advice folks, we dont really have a written procedure to deal with this kind of thing,something we maybe have to look at !
Certain things are clear tho,
She can never work here again, we have a duty to our other staff.
So you suspend her pending a disciplinary meeting which you convene in about a week. As a result of that process you may then decide to dismiss. So there is no need for her to work again, but you shouldn't just fire her without due process.Certain things are clear tho,
She can never work here again, we have a duty to our other staff.
R TOY said:
Employment law website states quite clearly that this situation is grounds for instant dismisal.
Grounds for summary dismissal as gross misconduct, which means that she does not need to have had previous warnings, but it does not mean that you just fire her on the spotR TOY said:
I have spoken again to the other (victim) girl who is not wanting to make any more fuss ie/police etc so we will not go down that route unless things get out of hand.
I have also been told (grapevine) that the woman is now planning to resign on Tues because of what happened, so i am keeping my fingers crossed and will let her have first say.
Be best for all if that is the case.
D.
Yes if she quits it is better for all so long as she doesn't claim that it was her who was attacked and tries for constructive dismissal. I have also been told (grapevine) that the woman is now planning to resign on Tues because of what happened, so i am keeping my fingers crossed and will let her have first say.
Be best for all if that is the case.
D.
Rude-boy said:
mrmr96 said:
R TOY said:
Big relief, woman has come in to work this morning and resigned, so we have parted on 'reasonable' terms and hope that is the end of it.
Thanks for advice, Happy new year. D
Resigned "in writing"?Thanks for advice, Happy new year. D
Very much needs to be in writing.
Oh hell, no just verbally but with at least 2 witnesses.
All a bit delicate to be honest, she was determined to be resigning by choice and was going to do so anyway!.
Whole thing was on the edge of exploding and so i was trying to be as diplomatic as poss.
Think i'm going to keep my fingers crossed thats the end of it..
All a bit delicate to be honest, she was determined to be resigning by choice and was going to do so anyway!.
Whole thing was on the edge of exploding and so i was trying to be as diplomatic as poss.
Think i'm going to keep my fingers crossed thats the end of it..
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