On call during bank holidays.
Discussion
I cover a one in four on call rota and paid x amount per week for being on call. However, looking at my upcoming schedule in April and May there are three bank holidays, two of which I'll be on call for. I believe my holiday entitlement is 25 days plus bank holidays. Now, if I have to be on call for a bank holiday then I am not receiving my full entitlement as I see it.
Can anyone offer any advice to where I may stand or does anyone else work on call who can comment?
Cheers.
ETA
Just looked out my contract which states (in short);
Holiday entitlement
Your holiday entitlement will be 25 days per annum.
Public holidays
You are entitled to all public holidays in addition to your basic company holiday entitlement and will be paid for each holiday.
Can anyone offer any advice to where I may stand or does anyone else work on call who can comment?
Cheers.
ETA
Just looked out my contract which states (in short);
Holiday entitlement
Your holiday entitlement will be 25 days per annum.
Public holidays
You are entitled to all public holidays in addition to your basic company holiday entitlement and will be paid for each holiday.
Edited by Laplace on Friday 2nd March 12:06
what is the custom and practice within the organisation for taking bank holidays ? does the organisation shut down or go to skeleton service on bank holidays or do parts of the organisation treat it as some form of working day ( even if it;s not a full on working weekday for the back office people)
Tor instance within the NHS leave is expressed as n days + 8 bank holidays ( where n depends on your accumulated service with increases at 5 and 10 years) but for those of us working in 24/7/services it effectively means we have n+ 8 days to take across the year.
The reason i point this out is that if your annual leave entitlement is specificed as 25 +8 and you work on the bank holiday you'll be getting a lieu day anyway (the 'missed' bank holiday) as well as whatever ( if any ) contractual payment for working / being available on a bank holiday ...
If you are concerned that it's unfair to ask you to work 2 of the bank holidays, be careful what you wish for , as everyone will cop for it over the cpourse of a few years or you might find that in stead of copping for one messed up easter weekend every x years it'll be messed up twice as often but only by being on call for one in stead of both BHs ...
Tor instance within the NHS leave is expressed as n days + 8 bank holidays ( where n depends on your accumulated service with increases at 5 and 10 years) but for those of us working in 24/7/services it effectively means we have n+ 8 days to take across the year.
The reason i point this out is that if your annual leave entitlement is specificed as 25 +8 and you work on the bank holiday you'll be getting a lieu day anyway (the 'missed' bank holiday) as well as whatever ( if any ) contractual payment for working / being available on a bank holiday ...
If you are concerned that it's unfair to ask you to work 2 of the bank holidays, be careful what you wish for , as everyone will cop for it over the cpourse of a few years or you might find that in stead of copping for one messed up easter weekend every x years it'll be messed up twice as often but only by being on call for one in stead of both BHs ...
mph1977 said:
what is the custom and practice within the organisation for taking bank holidays ? does the organisation shut down or go to skeleton service on bank holidays or do parts of the organisation treat it as some form of working day ( even if it;s not a full on working weekday for the back office people)
The entire organisation shuts down worldwide as far as I know.mph1977 said:
Tor instance within the NHS leave is expressed as n days + 8 bank holidays ( where n depends on your accumulated service with increases at 5 and 10 years) but for those of us working in 24/7/services it effectively means we have n+ 8 days to take across the year.
Going by my contract it looks like n + 8 but I guess where I run into muddied waters is that when I started with the company almost 5 years ago on call wasn't part of the job, it's a recent addition to our workload to meet a customer's demand and we haven't had anything in writing to update our new conditions.mph1977 said:
The reason i point this out is that if your annual leave entitlement is specificed as 25 +8 and you work on the bank holiday you'll be getting a lieu day anyway (the 'missed' bank holiday) as well as whatever ( if any ) contractual payment for working / being available on a bank holiday ...
If you are concerned that it's unfair to ask you to work 2 of the bank holidays, be careful what you wish for , as everyone will cop for it over the cpourse of a few years or you might find that in stead of copping for one messed up easter weekend every x years it'll be messed up twice as often but only by being on call for one in stead of both BHs ...
I won't be making huge waves over this, I have a good deal at my work with lots of benefits, I just wanted to gauge the general consensus on this and to find out if there's anything in black and white before I consider picking up the phone to my manager.If you are concerned that it's unfair to ask you to work 2 of the bank holidays, be careful what you wish for , as everyone will cop for it over the cpourse of a few years or you might find that in stead of copping for one messed up easter weekend every x years it'll be messed up twice as often but only by being on call for one in stead of both BHs ...
I'll probably be covering Christmas this year so that's another couple of public holidays to add the the tally.
I like the idea of a day in lieu, seems fair.
I used to work a rota system ,where we worked every second Saturday as 8 hours ,and anything over as overtime. The following Monday was a non work day . But if a bank holiday fell on your day off ,we got the day off and a day in lieu. If ,however ,the Monday was a roster day ,then you only got the day off.
Laplace said:
paid x amount per week for being on call
I can see why you might prefer to be free on these particular days, but:a) You're paid for being on call on some of your days off, why should you get a replacement day off for it as well? The fact that they are determined by a rota means that you're only on call on the bank holiday because you're NOT on call some other day.
b) Why should you work one day fewer over the year than someone whose on-call day falls on a Saturday rather than a bank holiday?
c) If the whole company shuts down it's a blessing to get your on-call days on a bank holiday - you won't be getting any calls!
bogwoppit said:
I can see why you might prefer to be free on these particular days, but:
a) You're paid for being on call on some of your days off, why should you get a replacement day off for it as well? The fact that they are determined by a rota means that you're only on call on the bank holiday because you're NOT on call some other day.
b) Why should you work one day fewer over the year than someone whose on-call day falls on a Saturday rather than a bank holiday?
c) If the whole company shuts down it's a blessing to get your on-call days on a bank holiday - you won't be getting any calls!
A) I'm not looking for a replacement day off for being on call during days off, weekends for example. Bank holidays contribute towards my annual holiday allowance, if I'm on call during those I'm not receiving my full allowance.a) You're paid for being on call on some of your days off, why should you get a replacement day off for it as well? The fact that they are determined by a rota means that you're only on call on the bank holiday because you're NOT on call some other day.
b) Why should you work one day fewer over the year than someone whose on-call day falls on a Saturday rather than a bank holiday?
c) If the whole company shuts down it's a blessing to get your on-call days on a bank holiday - you won't be getting any calls!
B) I'm not looking to work fewer days. If I'm on call during a bank holiday (which contributes to my legal entitlement of 28 days per year) I'm tethered to the local area on restricted activities waiting for the phone to go, I'm working, I'm not on holiday.
We all do Monday to Sunday, some will dodge the on call bank holidays, some won't. Those who do will have a day off, those who don't, won't. Fair? Not really IMO.
C) If that was the case I wouldn't be on call and the company would save themselves a few bob. The company shutting down has no bearing on me being called out or not. We cover a site in Glasgow for O2, if our product on their site fails I'll get a call.
I don't thinks it's unreasonable to enquire about this. From what I can tell some get nothing and some get a day in lieu so there's definitely scope for a few questions.
I'll put it to the powers at be on Monday and see what they say.
It's not the end of the world if they tell me to do one, it doesn't sit well with me tbh but I'll get on with it. At the end of the day we never get called out so it's money for old rope, but that's not the point.
Of course its not unreasonable to expect extra for being on call on bank holidays. Whether its money or time off, anybody that argues against clearly has never been on a call-out rota.
In my opinion, if you are not getting extra then all the bank holidays should be divided out as evenly as possible, regardless of normal rota. Is the company flexible enough for you to sort out your own cover? Those that don't seem to get the bank holidays may not be so keen though!
We used to move ours around and nobody cared as long as the job was done, wouldn't want to do it again though.
In my opinion, if you are not getting extra then all the bank holidays should be divided out as evenly as possible, regardless of normal rota. Is the company flexible enough for you to sort out your own cover? Those that don't seem to get the bank holidays may not be so keen though!
We used to move ours around and nobody cared as long as the job was done, wouldn't want to do it again though.
Do you get an allowance/payment for being on call? or is it just 'part of the job'?
If there is an allowance, does it make any difference if there is a BH within the on-call? I know where I used to work and managed some on call rotas there were different rates for weekdays/weekends/BHs, so if thats the case you're getting the compensation due for it anyway (regardless of whether it seems a 'fair' amount).
That you've got stung with 2 BH in short time is just unlucky, it could be argued that in the long term they average out, although often doesn't seem to work out that way. What we ended up doing for the rotas where this was a concern was to have a separate cycle for weeks that included BHs, so that they were evenly allocated and no one felt hard done by (or shouldn't have - some would always find something to moan about!)
If there is an allowance, does it make any difference if there is a BH within the on-call? I know where I used to work and managed some on call rotas there were different rates for weekdays/weekends/BHs, so if thats the case you're getting the compensation due for it anyway (regardless of whether it seems a 'fair' amount).
That you've got stung with 2 BH in short time is just unlucky, it could be argued that in the long term they average out, although often doesn't seem to work out that way. What we ended up doing for the rotas where this was a concern was to have a separate cycle for weeks that included BHs, so that they were evenly allocated and no one felt hard done by (or shouldn't have - some would always find something to moan about!)
We get paid a flat fee per week for being on call then our hourly rate if we get called out. On weekends and bank holidays the hourly rate will be at double time but the flat fee is always the same.
The crux of the issue is that these days are part of my annual entitlement. I wouldn't expect to be put on call during my two week summer break, the BH is no different. It needs covered which is fair enough but we should be recompensed in some way for losing a days holiday, imho.
Yes, we're pretty much in charge of our rota, as long as it's covered they don't want anything to do with it.
If the management don't go for it then I might look at spreading the BHs evenly.
The crux of the issue is that these days are part of my annual entitlement. I wouldn't expect to be put on call during my two week summer break, the BH is no different. It needs covered which is fair enough but we should be recompensed in some way for losing a days holiday, imho.
Yes, we're pretty much in charge of our rota, as long as it's covered they don't want anything to do with it.
If the management don't go for it then I might look at spreading the BHs evenly.
Edited by Laplace on Sunday 4th March 15:42
I'm sure management will argue that the double time pay when called out on a BH is plenty, despite the fact that being on call usually means no beer if you want one, no trips away, not able to partake in any sports etc etc and if you don't get called out you will never see the double hourly rate anyway.
I may have had this argument myself.
I may have had this argument myself.
Laplace said:
We get paid a flat fee per week for being on call then our hourly rate if we get called out. On weekends and bank holidays the hourly rate will be at double time but the flat fee is always the same.
The crux of the issue is that these days are part of my annual entitlement. I wouldn't expect to be put on call during my two week summer break, the BH is no different. It needs covered which is fair enough but we should be recompensed in some way for losing a days holiday, imho.
I think you've got it all backwards. All non-working days are part of your annual entitlement, being on call on a bank holiday does not leave you with one less day than if it were any other type of non-working day. Think about it: you are only ever on-calls on days that are not part of your regular working pattern. For people who normally work 9-5, that usually means weekends. If you were to get an extra day off in lieu for being on call on a bank holiday, you would be working one fewer day per year than your colleague whose on call days all fall on weekends. If for some strange reason you were on call on one of your holiday days, it would be the same situation. It's because every day you are on call on a bank holiday (or holiday) is one less day you are on call some other non-working day. If you don't believe me, work it out! The only way this would be different is if bank holidays were "extra" on call days, allocated in addition to all the other on-call days i.e. everyone else has 26 on call days and you have 26 plus 2 bank holidays. That's not how you described it though, you said they are part of the regular rota.The crux of the issue is that these days are part of my annual entitlement. I wouldn't expect to be put on call during my two week summer break, the BH is no different. It needs covered which is fair enough but we should be recompensed in some way for losing a days holiday, imho.
You say bank holidays are no different to holiday, but they are: you don't schedule bank holidays. If it helps, think of them more like extended weekends than booked holidays. Holidays let you not go to work on working days, whereas weekends and bank holidays are non-working days. And just to point out the obvious, your 2 week summer holiday has a weekend in between. You can be on call weekends, so you book your holiday according to the rota, right? Well, the same applies with on-call bank holidays. If the rota has you on call for that bank holiday, you either swap with someone or choose another date.
It sucks, but the reason you get paid for being on call is exactly for the reasons you are complaining about - i.e. you can't make plans for those days. You get paid more for being called out on bank holidays, but you could make a case that your on-call "retainer" rate should be higher too.
Another thing that some employers do is let you book non-working days as paid holiday. The rota still needs to be rearranged, so this is just a different (more formal) way of doing it, but it basically means you sacrifice a holiday to guarantee that you won't be on call on a particular non-working day. You'd generally get paid twice for that day though. One reason for doing it this way is if the on-call rota is not booked very far in advance.
Hi and thanks for your reply.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/T...
It does when it contributes to my annual entitlement (This seems to keep falling on deaf ears to some). One of our colleagues is not working any BHs, so while he's at home relaxing in the garden with a beer or whatever I'm waiting for the phone to ring. He has an extra day off than me or anyone else on call during a BH.
To update: I spoke with my manager yesterday who agrees it doesn't seem right and he is going to speak with HR and get back to me by the end of the week with a solution.
bogwoppit said:
think you've got it all backwards.
I'm not sure if I have it entirely backwards when the 4th poster down gets a day off in lieu, someone somewhere must agree with me. bogwoppit said:
All non-working days are part of your annual entitlement,
I'm assuming you are referring to weekends as non-working days, these are not part of my annual entitlement. My annual entitlement is a minimumm of 28 days as a full time employee, I get 25 from my employer and the remainder is made up from public hlidays, and all of which I'm entitled to as per my contract.http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/T...
bogwoppit said:
being on call on a bank holiday does not leave you with one less day than if it were any other type of non-working day.
It does when it contributes to my annual entitlement (This seems to keep falling on deaf ears to some). One of our colleagues is not working any BHs, so while he's at home relaxing in the garden with a beer or whatever I'm waiting for the phone to ring. He has an extra day off than me or anyone else on call during a BH.
bogwoppit said:
Think about it: you are only ever on-calls on days that are not part of your regular working pattern. For people who normally work 9-5, that usually means weekends.
No I'm not, I'm on call 24/7 for the ENTIRE week Monday 8am to following Monday 8am. I'm on-call during my regular working pattern. bogwoppit said:
If you were to get an extra day off in lieu for being on call on a bank holiday, you would be working one fewer day per year than your colleague whose on call days all fall on weekends.
No I wouldn't, while they are enjoying their day off on a BH I am working. My day in lieu would make up for the day I worked and they doidn't, we would therefore be even.bogwoppit said:
If for some strange reason you were on call on one of your holiday days, it would be the same situation. It's because every day you are on call on a bank holiday (or holiday) is one less day you are on call some other non-working day. If you don't believe me, work it out! The only way this would be different is if bank holidays were "extra" on call days, allocated in addition to all the other on-call days i.e. everyone else has 26 on call days and you have 26 plus 2 bank holidays. That's not how you described it though, you said they are part of the regular rota.
bogwoppit said:
You say bank holidays are no different to holiday, but they are: you don't schedule bank holidays. If it helps, think of them more like extended weekends than booked holidays. Holidays let you not go to work on working days, whereas weekends and bank holidays are non-working days.
No different in the sense they are part of my annual entitlement which is 25+8=33days. This point seems to flying over some people's heads.bogwoppit said:
And just to point out the obvious, your 2 week summer holiday has a weekend in between. You can be on call weekends, so you book your holiday according to the rota, right? Well, the same applies with on-call bank holidays. If the rota has you on call for that bank holiday, you either swap with someone or choose another date.
Yes of course you book it to the rota but that doesn't mean he who works it shouldn't be rcompensed in some way for working their holiday. Getting paid double time for any on-call hours isn't sufficient, I get that 7 days a week if I get called out between 10pm and 2am. The rate at which I'm paid to be on standby should be increased for BHs.bogwoppit said:
It sucks, but the reason you get paid for being on call is exactly for the reasons you are complaining about - i.e. you can't make plans for those days. You get paid more for being called out on bank holidays, but you could make a case that your on-call "retainer" rate should be higher too.
Well at least we agree on something. To update: I spoke with my manager yesterday who agrees it doesn't seem right and he is going to speak with HR and get back to me by the end of the week with a solution.
Edited by Laplace on Wednesday 7th March 12:58
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff