Tupe holidays

[C3BER]

Following on to my TUPE question. Some of the older guys are on 28 days holiday contracts but now the new company wants them back on the same holiday entitlement we are all on... Question is can they do anything about it? Or is it you've been lucky and now it's suck it in.

[smn159]

I would have thought that it might be possible to resign and claim constructive dismissal at one extreme, or at least to expect some other form of compensation if the new employer can demonstrate that they really can't support their current leave entitlement.

Surely some proper legal advice from someone specialising in employment law is their first port of call though?

[C3BER]

The POA says its fine but the GMB is looking into it. The company has a max 25 holiday policy.

[cal216610]

Most security posts give 20 days plus bank holidays or 28 days including bank holidays.
Not sure they can actually change a tupe contract unless the actual role of employment has changed, IE new hours, new shift pattern etc.. but under tupe safeguards you should not be worse off including contracted hours, pay rate and other benifits like holiday.(at least for 2 yrs anyway)
The only way they can change this is if something changes that requires a new contract and that's when they can adjust to suit the company.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/T...

Also see her for info on tupe,

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/B...

Edited by cal216610 on Monday 9th April 13:19

[C3BER]

If they fail to sign the contract what could be the outcome? I know you don't have all the facts but there is a slight alteration to the contract because we are moving to anualised hours.

[cal216610]

Looks like you may need to sign under the new terms then.
I work in security (OCS, Reliance then Securitas)and have gone through a few tupe change overs and the only time we had a new contract is when we changed shift finish times, even though the contracted hours were the same we just had one longer shift alternate saturdays and this requiered the new contract.
If you actually look it over you may find that you are not losing out on anything but just getting a new contract with the current/new employer.
If you don't sign it maybe that you are putting yourself out of a job.
Like i say though the changes over a month or year may not be less at all.
It may only seem like that if you get paid fortnightly not monthly or that alternate weeks you do a longer shift to balance out a shorter one(like what happened to me).

[cal216610]

Just to add, on the holiday side i think the anualised hours meens that you must work certain amount of bank holidays, if this is the case it may meen you just get double pay (so the extra pay balances working it) or you get extra pay plus a day in lieu of working a bank holiday.

[C3BER]

Yes that's how it looks to me. I don't lose out its those that have been with the business for years that will. I've always wondered how they kept 28 days and now I guess they will not. I know one is trying for constructive dismissal.

[cal216610]

Unfortunatley they won't get it in my opinion as it's the whole of the contractors/contract that is changing for all.
Also if it's down to the client wanting the change then it's not your companys fault for the change and as a contractor unfair dismissal is pretty much null n void.
Two years ago we changed from 24hrs to 7am-10.30pm and we lost a guard, he was offered another role somewhere else but he didn't want it and was going went to get advice and he just got told, it's not your company changing the contract - it's the client of your company therefore tuff.

[C3BER]

I think they are going to lose it myself which after all those years is a shame but hi ho I never had 28.

[cal216610]

C3BER said:

I think they are going to lose it myself which after all those years is a shame but hi ho I never had 28.

You have if you have a look at this way, if you work a bank holiday you get double pay = 2days pay for 1 days work, now if you did half the bank holidays which is 4-5 times the pay by 2 = 8days.
I guess you only book 20 days seperately per year? add the two together and it works around the 28 days (ish) total.
As it stands i really can't see the guys actually loseing out as much as they think.
As you noted earlier they could get another body in to fill a gap and everyone would lose out.
When we first changed off 12 hrs shifts they brought in another guard so our 4 on 3 off rota was kept the same but we all ended up less by the amount the other guard was doing, we argued and our shift was made into a 6 day/5 day rotation giving us back the £130 each we were coming up short.
If they work out the pay over a 12 month period i think they will find it will balance out evenly, but even so jobs a job and jobs are tight.

[cal216610]

Also if they have less holidays that should actually give them more working days so they technically should be earning roughly a weeks pay per year more.

[C3BER]

I think the biggest issues everybody has had is getting our heads around the new contract and how it works. It has not helped when managers themselves don't know how it works themselves.

[cal216610]

Best way to work it out is,
Tally up what you currently earn per anum, now do the same with the proposed new shift hours.
You should be able to work out what the difference is, and you may find it rather small over a 12 month period.
EG,
Currently,
42hrs @ £8 =£336
Proposed,
37.5hrs @ £8 = £300.
Will there be a saturday shift? as the above is somwhat similar to what we had but then we did alternate saturday.
10.5hrs @ £8 = £84 divide 2 £42.
So for us instead of £336 for 42 hrs we went down to 37.5 + sat + £342, so we were actually better off.
I think the main confusion we had was that the saturday shift we did was not added as part of the regular shift due to it been over 2 weeks and not every week.

Edited by cal216610 on Monday 9th April 17:04

Edited by cal216610 on Monday 9th April 17:05

[C3BER]

For us it's four on four off with 50/50 split days and nights. We are keeping our 42 hours by having 37.5 hours and a top up. Holidays work out at 19.6 but with the option of double money on bank holidays or time off and single payment.

[cal216610]

Looks like it's all good then, 19.6 on holidays I think relates to if you book a shift off (12hrs) you get paid 11.5 due to half hour break ( check an old payslip) to confirm.
If you don't work any bank holidays you get paid ? So add that to your 20 days(19.6) and you actually get 28 days per anum,
It does seem like no one is losing out just the way you are reading the contract as been less days off.
The guys do need to take into account that some changes are down to working regulations (continental shifts being part of it ) and the clients change in required officers.
Hope I have helped in some way, and let me know how it goes.
Chris.

[C3BER]

You really have helped and the point about 19.6 equalling 20 days due to a dinner break makes sence. Cheers for all that you have posted as its cleared a few foggy issues.