Engineers/Engineering undervalued in the UK
Discussion
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/policy-and-business/n...
reading around the subject, it seems the complaints of being undervalued and underpaid by engineers is one that has been around for a very long time. As the link above suggests, today it is still the case that the profession probably isn't even seen as such by many people.
Personally, I don't think this is ever going to change. There are too many professional bodies for a start, one seemingly for each minutely different tranche of engineering and they're all useless. I pay my fees to the IMechE for pretty much nothing in return. There is no cohesive voice for engineering in the UK and while it stays like that, no one is going to listen to thousands of little mouths all chirping at once (and thats assuming that these bodies are in fact doing something to raise the status of their members, which I suspect many are not).
I don't care too much either way (though enough to post this). If I don't leave the UK in the next 5 years, I almost certainly won't be staying in Engineering anyway so it makes no odds. I don't think its going enable me to get where I want to be in life.
What do others think about this survey posted above? Pertinent point or same old drivel for those unhappy with their lot to cling to and whinge about?
reading around the subject, it seems the complaints of being undervalued and underpaid by engineers is one that has been around for a very long time. As the link above suggests, today it is still the case that the profession probably isn't even seen as such by many people.
Personally, I don't think this is ever going to change. There are too many professional bodies for a start, one seemingly for each minutely different tranche of engineering and they're all useless. I pay my fees to the IMechE for pretty much nothing in return. There is no cohesive voice for engineering in the UK and while it stays like that, no one is going to listen to thousands of little mouths all chirping at once (and thats assuming that these bodies are in fact doing something to raise the status of their members, which I suspect many are not).
I don't care too much either way (though enough to post this). If I don't leave the UK in the next 5 years, I almost certainly won't be staying in Engineering anyway so it makes no odds. I don't think its going enable me to get where I want to be in life.
What do others think about this survey posted above? Pertinent point or same old drivel for those unhappy with their lot to cling to and whinge about?
rog007 said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
I pay my fees to the IMechE for pretty much nothing in return.
This is a common quote; the retort is often "what have you put in to the organisation (beyond just your cash)"? Equally, you, and others, could vote with their feet?I understand what is meant by the retort, but by the same token, on the outside, they seem to be just absorbing money
so its right to question why people pay them. Anyway, this thread isn't about the relative merits of the IMechE. Its about the survey presented in the OP link.Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 10th April 00:37
johnfm said:
In a country where people who fix photocopiers are 'engineers' what do you expect?
It isn't a protected title, so engineers and machinists and clear vision engineers all get mixed into the same pot.
Yep, photocopier "engineers" and the like doesn't help with public perception. Even in the Engineering consultancy where I work, the admin staff use the term in that way (much to the annoyance of everyone). Some of my (non-Uni) friends thought I was training to be a mechanic when I took Mech Eng at Uni. Look at places like Germany where it's a protected title. It isn't a protected title, so engineers and machinists and clear vision engineers all get mixed into the same pot.
It's likely that I'd be earning more if I'd gone into accountancy, but I'd be bored to death.
Edited by hyperblue on Tuesday 10th April 14:33
This is why I prefer working offshore and not amongst cubicle engineers. No-one gives a crap about recognition, or CEng, or any of that b
ks.
As for underpaid, I'm in a room with about 12 guys, all engineers (plus a couple of safety snakes) and I don't think anyone is on less than 100K, plus a quick straw poll reveals that the only membership anyone has is the Tufty Club and a 25m swimming certificate.
ks. As for underpaid, I'm in a room with about 12 guys, all engineers (plus a couple of safety snakes) and I don't think anyone is on less than 100K, plus a quick straw poll reveals that the only membership anyone has is the Tufty Club and a 25m swimming certificate.
Its kind of embarrassing when you have to explain to a German friend that in the UK engineers are not exactly the most respected bunch and that marketers and advertising experts seem to hold more 'social worth'. She couldn't believe it.
From what I understand, engineers in Germany are highly regarded and revered and are in the same league as top doctors and lawyer types, compared to the slightly outcast position they hold in UK society.
From what I understand, engineers in Germany are highly regarded and revered and are in the same league as top doctors and lawyer types, compared to the slightly outcast position they hold in UK society.
sooperscoop said:
This is why I prefer working offshore and not amongst cubicle engineers. No-one gives a crap about recognition, or CEng, or any of that bks.
As for underpaid, I'm in a room with about 12 guys, all engineers (plus a couple of safety snakes) and I don't think anyone is on less than 100K, plus a quick straw poll reveals that the only membership anyone has is the Tufty Club and a 25m swimming certificate.
I think offshore is a special case!ks. As for underpaid, I'm in a room with about 12 guys, all engineers (plus a couple of safety snakes) and I don't think anyone is on less than 100K, plus a quick straw poll reveals that the only membership anyone has is the Tufty Club and a 25m swimming certificate.
Do you reckon though, as the black stuff gets harder to extract it'll be more difficult to get a job in offshore? Ie the only guys who could tackle the problems are the old boys with donkeys years of experience to draw on so fresh meat would find it very difficult unless they are super s
t hot?
)I used to be a 2nd then 3rd then 4th Line Server Engineer. I am now a Technical Design Architect.
All stupid titles that belittle the name engineer and architect. I am very good at my job and get paid well. However my Dad's generation were engineers who deserved their title. He was the Chief Design Engineer for Kodak, he had done the studying, the apprenticeship and the time in the job. He designed some amazingly successfull cameras and projectors etc.
I would hardly call my role as engineering or arcitecture.
All stupid titles that belittle the name engineer and architect. I am very good at my job and get paid well. However my Dad's generation were engineers who deserved their title. He was the Chief Design Engineer for Kodak, he had done the studying, the apprenticeship and the time in the job. He designed some amazingly successfull cameras and projectors etc.
I would hardly call my role as engineering or arcitecture.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I think offshore is a special case!
Do you reckon though, as the black stuff gets harder to extract it'll be more difficult to get a job in offshore? Ie the only guys who could tackle the problems are the old boys with donkeys years of experience to draw on so fresh meat would find it very difficult unless they are super st hot?
To be honest, there seems more work than ever. Sure, it'll slow down, and the developing world is churning out engineers in the 10's of thousands, but if you have skills and drive, and are willing to move halfway across the globe without hesitation, the work is there. Everyone hears the stories about Western Oz and Alberta in Canada, where you can get 600/day for little more than manual labour.Do you reckon though, as the black stuff gets harder to extract it'll be more difficult to get a job in offshore? Ie the only guys who could tackle the problems are the old boys with donkeys years of experience to draw on so fresh meat would find it very difficult unless they are super s
t hot?It seems the biggest hurdle is that first step. That said, we have guys here who were last doing SCADA work in milk bottling plants, so it's not impossible.
Is it undervalued? Yes and probably always will be- I think for the following reasons…
There is no legal requirement for anyone engineering anything to be a credited person. This is changing in certain respects in places like nuclear, but it’s a long climb. Compare this to accountancy or the legal profession.
One issue is the sheer quantity of technical people required to engineer a major product. Think of how many technical people there are at Ford, Jaguar etc… who have to work through reams and reams of standards, paperwork and legislation. I am currently chewing my way through 2,200 pages of pressure vessel legislation (ASME VIII) to make sure what we put onto the market is OK. Can all of us be highly paid? It does start to cost a lot of money.
There has been a long history of deriding anyone involved in making things. There are a number of books to read which will not fill you with glee.
Bert Hopwood – Whatever Happened to the British Motor Cycle Industry? Although it’s a bit of a CYA exercise- some of the examples are priceless.
The Motor Makers – Martin Adeney
The Audit Of War – Corelli Barnett - Be careful reading this – it WILL get you annoyed!
Most people have no experience of “engineers” in their lives. For most, the experience they do get is the photo copier engineer/car mechanic. Many people who work in engineering companies have no direct contact with the actual engineers.
What gets me is when I tell people what I do, they look at me and say “what!? You do THAT! But you’re an engineer!” Oh gee thanks… It was only when I was travelling the world that people sat up and took notice. The joke here is that I was only doing marine service technician work, as there weren’t enough of us in the design team (that I managed!) to cover the workload from elsewhere.
I must admit I am past caring now, 25 years of engineering does that to you. However, engineering prestige WILL come back. There is so much out there in terms of long term issues, that it has to. Peak Oil (if you want to believe it) is just one– although the amount of technology and money that is getting thrown at future of oil production is something else.
Energy – how are we going to light and heat our UK? Nuclear build has been put on hold-ish. No-one wants wind turbines, are we going tidal? It will be interesting watching the doctors and nurses’ halos go out when the hospitals can’t function without any mains power.
Transport – the changing transportation model, demise of the internal combustion engine, and growth of hybrids/fuel cells/ electric. If only we had enough power to charge the batteries up, see above.
Yet I am happy in what I do, and I enjoy my work, as long as things keep going round and round, I will be in a job.
There is no legal requirement for anyone engineering anything to be a credited person. This is changing in certain respects in places like nuclear, but it’s a long climb. Compare this to accountancy or the legal profession.
One issue is the sheer quantity of technical people required to engineer a major product. Think of how many technical people there are at Ford, Jaguar etc… who have to work through reams and reams of standards, paperwork and legislation. I am currently chewing my way through 2,200 pages of pressure vessel legislation (ASME VIII) to make sure what we put onto the market is OK. Can all of us be highly paid? It does start to cost a lot of money.
There has been a long history of deriding anyone involved in making things. There are a number of books to read which will not fill you with glee.
Bert Hopwood – Whatever Happened to the British Motor Cycle Industry? Although it’s a bit of a CYA exercise- some of the examples are priceless.
The Motor Makers – Martin Adeney
The Audit Of War – Corelli Barnett - Be careful reading this – it WILL get you annoyed!
Most people have no experience of “engineers” in their lives. For most, the experience they do get is the photo copier engineer/car mechanic. Many people who work in engineering companies have no direct contact with the actual engineers.
What gets me is when I tell people what I do, they look at me and say “what!? You do THAT! But you’re an engineer!” Oh gee thanks… It was only when I was travelling the world that people sat up and took notice. The joke here is that I was only doing marine service technician work, as there weren’t enough of us in the design team (that I managed!) to cover the workload from elsewhere.
I must admit I am past caring now, 25 years of engineering does that to you. However, engineering prestige WILL come back. There is so much out there in terms of long term issues, that it has to. Peak Oil (if you want to believe it) is just one– although the amount of technology and money that is getting thrown at future of oil production is something else.
Energy – how are we going to light and heat our UK? Nuclear build has been put on hold-ish. No-one wants wind turbines, are we going tidal? It will be interesting watching the doctors and nurses’ halos go out when the hospitals can’t function without any mains power.
Transport – the changing transportation model, demise of the internal combustion engine, and growth of hybrids/fuel cells/ electric. If only we had enough power to charge the batteries up, see above.
Yet I am happy in what I do, and I enjoy my work, as long as things keep going round and round, I will be in a job.
bucksmanuk said:
<snip> It will be interesting watching the doctors and nurses’ halos go out when the hospitals can’t function without any mains power.
your post was going so well until then , as a Nurse and the son of Professional (IEng) engineer and grandson of a EngTech on one side and a Pit deputy on the other that grates, I have an interest in alternative . appropriate technology in healthcare and you'd be suprised the standards that can be achieved with limited access to power and first world infrastructure ... from a pragmatic point of view as i posted earlier in the thread Engineering will struggle for recognition unless and until the titles are enclosed , - then even technician would be enclosed in relation to any remotely engineering related field. Equally there has to be a push to get employers to require registration as part of their QA / QC systems which would go hand in hand with enclosure of title.
It may grate - it may even hurt - the truth usually does.
Without the machines that go beep, most of modern health care rapidly comes to a halt. Yes, there are loads of possibilities for low energy medicine, you only have to look at the third world and see how many people aren’t dying any more due to sensible precautions being taken. Its piss easy to run a refrigerator with medicines in it from a few solar panels etc… but to run a hospital that’s being built/run in the UK today, and keep it warm and lit , all the IT systems going, the hot water requirements, I’ll stick by my original comments. The personnel won’t know what’s hit them.
Without the machines that go beep, most of modern health care rapidly comes to a halt. Yes, there are loads of possibilities for low energy medicine, you only have to look at the third world and see how many people aren’t dying any more due to sensible precautions being taken. Its piss easy to run a refrigerator with medicines in it from a few solar panels etc… but to run a hospital that’s being built/run in the UK today, and keep it warm and lit , all the IT systems going, the hot water requirements, I’ll stick by my original comments. The personnel won’t know what’s hit them.
bucksmanuk said:
It may grate - it may even hurt - the truth usually does.
Without the machines that go beep, most of modern health care rapidly comes to a halt. Yes, there are loads of possibilities for low energy medicine, you only have to look at the third world and see how many people aren’t dying any more due to sensible precautions being taken. Its piss easy to run a refrigerator with medicines in it from a few solar panels etc… but to run a hospital that’s being built/run in the UK today, and keep it warm and lit , all the IT systems going, the hot water requirements, I’ll stick by my original comments. The personnel won’t know what’s hit them.
what makes you think that you strengthen your position by attempting to score points off others ... Without the machines that go beep, most of modern health care rapidly comes to a halt. Yes, there are loads of possibilities for low energy medicine, you only have to look at the third world and see how many people aren’t dying any more due to sensible precautions being taken. Its piss easy to run a refrigerator with medicines in it from a few solar panels etc… but to run a hospital that’s being built/run in the UK today, and keep it warm and lit , all the IT systems going, the hot water requirements, I’ll stick by my original comments. The personnel won’t know what’s hit them.
you are missing the most relevant point here Nursing and Medicine acted to ensure enclosure of title and proper professional registration , therefore they are in the positions they are in... the Uk has a very open and none compartmentalised attitude to skills in healthcare as well so it;s not as it stifles things in some bizarre job demarkation ritual ...
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