Paying employer back for courses.
Discussion
Hoping some of you could offer me some advice.
I handed in my notice today, it has been fairly amicable so far. My Foreman has been great about it. I've not actually spoken to the Boss yet, just had a message passed on to me by mt Foreman.
Basically he wants me to pay back in full all costs involved in some courses I attended whilst employed with him. Including travel and loss of earnings.
I've not attended any courses in the last 18 Months and I've actually denied the opportunity to attend others because I knew I wouldn't be sticking around.
Nearly 3 years ago he paid for a course which was I'm guessing 2-3k in total. I was made to sign a contract, which I stupidly did, being young and naive.
I didn't actually look at what I was signing, just scribbled my signature. Turned out I'd agreed to pay back in full all costs if I left within 5 years!!
How binding would this be? I didn't fill in my name, the date or any other information. My handwriting isn't on the contract and the contract itself was typed up on Word and printed on A4 paper, no witness statement, no carbon copies etc.
At this point you are probably thinking I'm a bit of a git for trying to weasel out of it.
Let me justify myself. I do overtime pretty much everyday for nothing. My pay stops at 16:30 and I usually finish work at 17:30-18:30 during quiet periods. In the winter 21:00 is the norm. All this unpaid and having no real say in the matter.
Personally I don't think I should be paying a penny for these courses, he has gained financially from me gaining these qualifications.
What are my options? I was thinking to ask for an itemised invoice of all costs incurred, including copies of the bills for the courses and also a copy of the contract I signed to be sent to me. I was then going to take this to a solicitor and go from there.
Good idea? Any other suggestions? I'm trying to avoid speaking to him directly about it as he is not the best person to reason with and I have a very short fuse and would probably end up doing/saying something stupid! I'd like to remain as mature and professional as possible!
Sorry for the long winded post, but please any advice you could offer would be very much appreciated!
I handed in my notice today, it has been fairly amicable so far. My Foreman has been great about it. I've not actually spoken to the Boss yet, just had a message passed on to me by mt Foreman.
Basically he wants me to pay back in full all costs involved in some courses I attended whilst employed with him. Including travel and loss of earnings.
I've not attended any courses in the last 18 Months and I've actually denied the opportunity to attend others because I knew I wouldn't be sticking around.
Nearly 3 years ago he paid for a course which was I'm guessing 2-3k in total. I was made to sign a contract, which I stupidly did, being young and naive.
I didn't actually look at what I was signing, just scribbled my signature. Turned out I'd agreed to pay back in full all costs if I left within 5 years!!
How binding would this be? I didn't fill in my name, the date or any other information. My handwriting isn't on the contract and the contract itself was typed up on Word and printed on A4 paper, no witness statement, no carbon copies etc.
At this point you are probably thinking I'm a bit of a git for trying to weasel out of it.
Let me justify myself. I do overtime pretty much everyday for nothing. My pay stops at 16:30 and I usually finish work at 17:30-18:30 during quiet periods. In the winter 21:00 is the norm. All this unpaid and having no real say in the matter.
Personally I don't think I should be paying a penny for these courses, he has gained financially from me gaining these qualifications.
What are my options? I was thinking to ask for an itemised invoice of all costs incurred, including copies of the bills for the courses and also a copy of the contract I signed to be sent to me. I was then going to take this to a solicitor and go from there.
Good idea? Any other suggestions? I'm trying to avoid speaking to him directly about it as he is not the best person to reason with and I have a very short fuse and would probably end up doing/saying something stupid! I'd like to remain as mature and professional as possible!
Sorry for the long winded post, but please any advice you could offer would be very much appreciated!
What is reaonable? That's what a court of law would ask. If it looks reasonable, sounds reasonable and you think it is reasonable, then it is most likely reasonable. However, if it doesn't sound reasonable ...
I'd begin an adult type dialogue before it gets to catty. Ask whether they think it is reasonable? If they do, ask what their actions would be if you declined their offer to repay; and get it in writing whatever the outcome. I would then seek advice from your union or CAB and be prepared to go to mediation and argue your, probably quite strong, case. A court would expect evidence of some form of mediation first before a judge would hear any claim, so this may well put them off due to the hassle. Good luck!
I'd begin an adult type dialogue before it gets to catty. Ask whether they think it is reasonable? If they do, ask what their actions would be if you declined their offer to repay; and get it in writing whatever the outcome. I would then seek advice from your union or CAB and be prepared to go to mediation and argue your, probably quite strong, case. A court would expect evidence of some form of mediation first before a judge would hear any claim, so this may well put them off due to the hassle. Good luck!
Rickyy said:
I do overtime pretty much everyday for nothing. My pay stops at 16:30 and I usually finish work at 17:30-18:30 during quiet periods. In the winter 21:00 is the norm. All this unpaid and having no real say in the matter.
Why on earth do you do that unpaid - that's just ridiculous?Whilst 5 years might sound a long time it depends on cost of the course(fees as well as any time off) and your salary. If the course fees were a big proportion of your salary then the payback period will be longer.
The fact that your employer made you sign a contract agreeing to repay suggests this has happened to him before.
The fact that your employer made you sign a contract agreeing to repay suggests this has happened to him before.
Deva Link said:
Why on earth do you do that unpaid - that's just ridiculous?
Fear mainly. I've worked there for nearly 6 years, from the age of 18. I was young and naive! Job has caused me a great deal of stress, I'm on anti-depressants at the moment because of it.Its got to the point where I've handed in my notice without guaranteed work to go to.
Appreciate the advice so far, thanks.
Woa that is scary. In life you work to live not live to work. Sounds like you have been exploited.
In life; do not worry about silly letters or threats for money. This is your life and what you choose to do is wholly up to you (within sensible reason). If you do not think that it is reasonable, then walk away and don't pay them - I most certainly would not pay them a penny.
In life; do not worry about silly letters or threats for money. This is your life and what you choose to do is wholly up to you (within sensible reason). If you do not think that it is reasonable, then walk away and don't pay them - I most certainly would not pay them a penny.
What exactly is regarded as 'official' ?
Is that the word of the employer?
Is that the word of a debt collection company?
Is that the word of a court?
Is that the word of God??
Fancy letters written on Croxley Script and embossed in wax makes no difference at all to my decision making process. If I should have paid for something and I think that I have a duty to; then I will. If for one minute I think I have been exploited then no chance.
Treat all cases individually and on their own merits. Personally if I do not think they are justified they do not get paid, and that includes all of the above. This is my life, I make the decisions and therefore I will suffer the consequences. You soon learn which ones you can dodge and which ones you can get away with
Either way good luck
Is that the word of the employer?
Is that the word of a debt collection company?
Is that the word of a court?
Is that the word of God??
Fancy letters written on Croxley Script and embossed in wax makes no difference at all to my decision making process. If I should have paid for something and I think that I have a duty to; then I will. If for one minute I think I have been exploited then no chance.
Treat all cases individually and on their own merits. Personally if I do not think they are justified they do not get paid, and that includes all of the above. This is my life, I make the decisions and therefore I will suffer the consequences. You soon learn which ones you can dodge and which ones you can get away with
Either way good luck
Well this is where I need the help of those wiser and more experienced than myself!
I guess by official, I mean when it starts getting legal. This is the only job I've had in my adult life and I've never had to deal with anything like this before.
I'm probably worrying over nothing, I doubt I'll get pursued, I just want to be prepared just in case!
Thankyou M'Lord!
I guess by official, I mean when it starts getting legal. This is the only job I've had in my adult life and I've never had to deal with anything like this before.
I'm probably worrying over nothing, I doubt I'll get pursued, I just want to be prepared just in case!
Thankyou M'Lord!
You are welcome. Please note that this is only my opinion, it would always be worth getting independent advice. The reason that I mentioned these opinions is because stress is an illness you could well do without - especially at your age. It's hard enough to survive in a recession without decent jobs, and a lot of unscrupulous employers are exploiting employees purely on the basis that they know there are not a lot of jobs out there.
There are jobs out there but you will have to work for them. I don't think people mind working harder if they think that their employer is appreciative of that work. Sadly a lot of employers are not, and that is where the problems start.
There are jobs out there but you will have to work for them. I don't think people mind working harder if they think that their employer is appreciative of that work. Sadly a lot of employers are not, and that is where the problems start.
I would start by acting surprised about the requirement to pay back the money - ask for a copy of the contract you signed. Then you know where you stand, when you get the contract.
If I had really worked loads of unpaid overtime then I might not feel bad about dodging £2k to £3k. Unless that particular training has really helped me get my next job, in which case I would pay it back and think of it as an investment in my own future.
I write this as an employee who worked lots of unpaid overtime in a past life and as an employer who has employees who receive paid study/leave time off and training. I make the effort to make sure they get paid for overtime though, and so I would ask and expect them to pay back the fees.
If I had really worked loads of unpaid overtime then I might not feel bad about dodging £2k to £3k. Unless that particular training has really helped me get my next job, in which case I would pay it back and think of it as an investment in my own future.
I write this as an employee who worked lots of unpaid overtime in a past life and as an employer who has employees who receive paid study/leave time off and training. I make the effort to make sure they get paid for overtime though, and so I would ask and expect them to pay back the fees.
Forget talk of debt collection and court etc it won't get that far. You signed a learner agreement with your employer. Most employers use them when paying for development that makes you more eligible elsewhere although they are usually limited to two years. Most that I have seen also have a sliding scale of repayment so if you leave within the first two years you pay back 1/24th of the cost for each month before the two years you leave. It is unusual for them to insist on full payback.
So why is talk of debt collection and court rubbish? they have the right to deduct that money you owe from the wages you will earn prior to leaving as it would be viewed by an employment tribunal as a reasonable deduction from salary as you agreed to it. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the lesson is don't sign anything without reading it first.
So why is talk of debt collection and court rubbish? they have the right to deduct that money you owe from the wages you will earn prior to leaving as it would be viewed by an employment tribunal as a reasonable deduction from salary as you agreed to it. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the lesson is don't sign anything without reading it first.
craigjm said:
So why is talk of debt collection and court rubbish? they have the right to deduct that money you owe from the wages you will earn prior to leaving as it would be viewed by an employment tribunal as a reasonable deduction from salary as you agreed to it. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the lesson is don't sign anything without reading it first.
Not quite. If the notice is short and the sum large, it is not reasonable nor lawful to deny an income based upon recovery of funds. Therefore it would be possible for an employer to persue additional compensation via the courts, most likely the small claims court process. rog007 said:
Not quite. If the notice is short and the sum large, it is not reasonable nor lawful to deny an income based upon recovery of funds. Therefore it would be possible for an employer to persue additional compensation via the courts, most likely the small claims court process.
depends on the ratio of cost to income and the notice period. If he has a 3 month notice period and they took say 500 a month from a 2500 salary that would be viewed as lawful. if he was on a month notice and they took all 2500 therefore leaving him with nothing that would not be reasonable or lawful. The important point as ever is that word reasonable. Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff