Where to find more mature candidates?
Discussion
Hi all,
I've been trying to hire business analysts recently, and am about to look for a software architect to run a small team. Without being ageist, I'd be happy to get applications from more mature candidates with more life experience who may not be quite so technically up to date, but could give a more thoughtful, considered approach.
However, I never get applications from anyone over about 35, even from agencies. I keep reading how older workers can't get interviews or jobs, but I can't get them to apply!
Any ideas where I could look for such people, or key words that would be worth putting in ads that might pique interest? Industry is tech/services, but the systems aren't too far away from most other service businesses.
I've been trying to hire business analysts recently, and am about to look for a software architect to run a small team. Without being ageist, I'd be happy to get applications from more mature candidates with more life experience who may not be quite so technically up to date, but could give a more thoughtful, considered approach.
However, I never get applications from anyone over about 35, even from agencies. I keep reading how older workers can't get interviews or jobs, but I can't get them to apply!
Any ideas where I could look for such people, or key words that would be worth putting in ads that might pique interest? Industry is tech/services, but the systems aren't too far away from most other service businesses.
I'm not precluding anybody from consideration, I'd just like a wider pool of candidates to consider. The BA hires have been early to mid-30s, and I'm very happy with their skills and experience. However, one skill I find it hard to put in a job spec is the ability to see a wider picture of business process, to understand how people interact with systems, and the planning expertise that comes with experience. I could specify "at least 10 years' experience at xxx level" I suppose, but the problem is that nobody with that experience applies!
Nobody is accusing you of not considering younger applicants but the fact is it's very hard to write what you want to write without ending up in legal trouble. The description you wrote in the original post would never see the light of day because it does breach regulations. You cannot specify age in any way, even saying 'mature candidate' is a no no. You can of course ask for experience even x amount of years doing such and such, but that leaves you with possibly a very limited pool of applicants and I'd wager the people you're looking for already have a job.
mondeoman said:
mr_spock said:
I could specify "at least 10 years' experience at xxx level" I suppose, but the problem is that nobody with that experience applies!
You cant even do that, as it precludes those who aren't old enough to have built up that experience.Perhaps you could specify a working knowledge of some bit of software that was out 10yrs ago, now obsolete or something
Here in liberal Dubai, ahem, if you wanted to you could do a job spec as below:
Wanted: XXXX Blah, blah,blah.
Only Western males with fluent English and 15 years experience are eligible - please send photo with application.
The photo bit weeds out those with the ginger.
mondeoman said:
mr_spock said:
I could specify "at least 10 years' experience at xxx level" I suppose, but the problem is that nobody with that experience applies!
You cant even do that, as it precludes those who aren't old enough to have built up that experience.AFAIK you can say things like that *provided*, if challenged, you can justify the requirement, for example seniority in terms of staffing responsibility, peer contact group, technical responsibility/authority etc.
As an example slightly relating to the OP, there is a recruitment company specialising in recruitment for the law sector currently advertising on cwJobs for (effectively) an analyst/programmer with a minimum of 3 years experience. The rest of the job description makes it pretty obvious that someone with 12 months experience isn't going to be suitable.
69 coupe said:
I suspect older candidates are looking for work, I wouldn't be surprised if many agency's are filtering older workers as standard practice.
This I suspect.I applied for a job I was well qualified for, didn't hear a dickie bird.
Not you OP is it?
The trouble with asking for experience in, say, COBOL, Pascal or ALGOL, is you'll end up with people who've been working in it recently in some dark dungeon (or a major bank!), rather than people who used it years ago and now spend time with customers.
I've used both the first two (I'm not 100% sure I didn't make up the last one, but it sounds familiar!), but I wouldn't apply for a job that included a requirement to have used either.
M.
Edited by marcosgt on Thursday 12th July 20:06
72EuropaTC said:
mondeoman said:
mr_spock said:
I could specify "at least 10 years' experience at xxx level" I suppose, but the problem is that nobody with that experience applies!
You cant even do that, as it precludes those who aren't old enough to have built up that experience.AFAIK you can say things like that *provided*, if challenged, you can justify the requirement, for example seniority in terms of staffing responsibility, peer contact group, technical responsibility/authority etc.
As an example slightly relating to the OP, there is a recruitment company specialising in recruitment for the law sector currently advertising on cwJobs for (effectively) an analyst/programmer with a minimum of 3 years experience. The rest of the job description makes it pretty obvious that someone with 12 months experience isn't going to be suitable.
It seems from your post you're willing to trade technical competence for wider skills and experiences. What you will need to do is describe those experiences and skills far more clearly in order to attract the person you want; I would argue it's those competencies you're after rather than someone of a certain age? Good luck!
rog007 said:
It seems from your post you're willing to trade technical competence for wider skills and experiences. What you will need to do is describe those experiences and skills far more clearly in order to attract the person you want; I would argue it's those competencies you're after rather than someone of a certain age? Good luck!
Agree 100%. I think the age thing is a potential red herring. Are you interviewing candidates who clearly do not demonstrate the breadth you are after? I'd offer it's not their age, but their experience (and life experience as you rightly cite, though age is no indicator of that) and their aptitude in the environment you've hinted at.
FWIW, I'd absolutely consider myself and be able to evidence that I have the (your words): "one skill I find it hard to put in a job spec is the ability to see a wider picture of business process, to understand how people interact with systems, and the planning expertise that comes with experience." I was a BA but was headhunted into a more project and change management orientated role in a complex business change environment because of that ability. I'm 33, but your 'age requirement' would act against me.
I'm not angling for a job
just adding another angle. rog007 said:
It seems from your post you're willing to trade technical competence for wider skills and experiences. What you will need to do is describe those experiences and skills far more clearly in order to attract the person you want; I would argue it's those competencies you're after rather than someone of a certain age? Good luck!
Very delicately put 
I'd summarise that by saying "The OP and his blinkered view is the reason these laws exist", if someone asked me to...I'd respectfully disagree. The age discrimination laws exist to prevent discrimination against older candidates. I don't want to hire someone older specifically, just to get some into the candidate mix to see if their skills would enhance my team. Also, since I keep reading that older people don't get considered for jobs (I.e. hidden age discrimination), it seemed socially responsible to see if there's a way to say "I won't discriminate" without sounding like I want to discriminate the other way.
It's a minefield, so maybe I should just give up and keep hiring the Northern and Eastern European, young, well educated but relatively inexperienced people who are tho only ones that apply with anything like the right skills. Seems a shame to not tap into the great pool of talent that thinks it's on the scrap heap.
It's a minefield, so maybe I should just give up and keep hiring the Northern and Eastern European, young, well educated but relatively inexperienced people who are tho only ones that apply with anything like the right skills. Seems a shame to not tap into the great pool of talent that thinks it's on the scrap heap.
Well the laws exist to prevent against age discrimination in all forms, young or old, and there have been cases at tribunal where complainants have successfully shown that they were discriminated against for being young.
But like many legal areas (Data Protection being the daddy of them all), much more is made of it by lay people that the legal reality warrants. Encouraging people from all age groups to apply is fine, arguably it is being fair to all concerned. Making a decision based on the fact that one applicant has more relevant experience than another is also fine.
But like many legal areas (Data Protection being the daddy of them all), much more is made of it by lay people that the legal reality warrants. Encouraging people from all age groups to apply is fine, arguably it is being fair to all concerned. Making a decision based on the fact that one applicant has more relevant experience than another is also fine.
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