Is a University Education a sensible investment nowadays?
Discussion
A friend shocked me with what it was going to cost to send his son to Uni for the next 3yrs - both tuition fees and also living costs, especially rent in Halls.
Now I'm off the generation who had no tuition fees and where you could the student lifestyle on the grant of £2,400 per annum (I did live in Birmingham which kept living costs down nicely) which made Uni a no brainer of a decision. But having graduated with a good vocational degree from a good University, throughout my working career I've been surrounded by people at all levels of the businesses (up to MD and Board level) who've had successful careers without going to University.
So, in today's world of employment, and with today's costs is it a good investment?
Now I'm off the generation who had no tuition fees and where you could the student lifestyle on the grant of £2,400 per annum (I did live in Birmingham which kept living costs down nicely) which made Uni a no brainer of a decision. But having graduated with a good vocational degree from a good University, throughout my working career I've been surrounded by people at all levels of the businesses (up to MD and Board level) who've had successful careers without going to University.
So, in today's world of employment, and with today's costs is it a good investment?
GBB said:
So, in today's world of employment, and with today's costs is it a good investment?
Depends.I've got a degree in engineering. Some of my peers don't have degrees. However promotion to the level I'm at was much faster with a degree. So in my case I think it'd be worth it. I'd say it also makes moving to a new company easier too (so many jobs are advertised as degree or better).
On the other hand I met a chap with a degree in philosphy who was whining about still not having a "graduate" job ten years after he graduated. I'm not sure it was worth giving him food, much less investing in an education. Idiot.
Depends a lot on what you're studying and where.
Pretty sure my degree is basically worthless (Sociology, from UoSheffield).
Unless it's a vocational degree I honestly don't see the point.
I suppose conversely maybe now everyone and their nan has one you look a bit stupid for not?
Pretty sure my degree is basically worthless (Sociology, from UoSheffield).
Unless it's a vocational degree I honestly don't see the point.
I suppose conversely maybe now everyone and their nan has one you look a bit stupid for not?
Edited by Horse Pop on Friday 21st September 08:55
If the degree is in an subject leading into a well-paying industry which doesn't have too many qualified graduates (or if it's a generic degree like maths), then definitely.
It is still perfectly possible, assuming you qualify for a full student loan (not sure if that's means tested these days?), to work your way through university without outside support but it wouldn't be much fun and I think it's getting increasingly difficult to find enough time to study to actually get a good degree while working.
It is still perfectly possible, assuming you qualify for a full student loan (not sure if that's means tested these days?), to work your way through university without outside support but it wouldn't be much fun and I think it's getting increasingly difficult to find enough time to study to actually get a good degree while working.
For some its a great decision, for others not so much.
My brother did a psychology degree, its been as much use a paper hat and he was £21k in debt.
I bumped into a friend yesterday whos just come back from uni, shes £24k in debt and looking for any job. She says it was a waste of time and money.
Its worthwhile if the job you want requires a degree in that area, the problem being most 18year olds don't really have a clue what they want to do (despite thinking they do) I think uni would have been much more beneficial for me if I gone after a couple years of work. Unfortunatly the rise is fees has put an end to any ideas of that.
My brother did a psychology degree, its been as much use a paper hat and he was £21k in debt.
I bumped into a friend yesterday whos just come back from uni, shes £24k in debt and looking for any job. She says it was a waste of time and money.
Its worthwhile if the job you want requires a degree in that area, the problem being most 18year olds don't really have a clue what they want to do (despite thinking they do) I think uni would have been much more beneficial for me if I gone after a couple years of work. Unfortunatly the rise is fees has put an end to any ideas of that.
Depends. There are people here in my work that are working at the same level as I am without degrees, however they are 10 years older than me. Also, they cannot go any higher as Design Engineer is the limit of someone without a degree. If you're interested in a lucrative career then I'd say it's worth it.
Also, almost all of the managers here have Doctorates in Engineering.
Also, almost all of the managers here have Doctorates in Engineering.
^^^^^^ basically this.
If you are going to do a proper 3 years of study in a difficult or technical subject then it's worthwhile. If you just intend to spend 3 years dicking around doing media studies and taking vast amounts of drugs like I did then these days it's probably not worth it.
If you are going to do a proper 3 years of study in a difficult or technical subject then it's worthwhile. If you just intend to spend 3 years dicking around doing media studies and taking vast amounts of drugs like I did then these days it's probably not worth it.
In my industry a degree definitely makes a difference. While I think anyone with sufficient interest could teach him/herself to do what we do, most jobs are advertised as requiring a degree at 2.1 or better in a relevant subject from a good university. I've worked with only one person who didn't have a degree, and though he didn't struggle to find work, when he converted from being a contractor to a permanent employee they would not give him the level his experience justified.
Depends on the chosen career path - if its a profession such as medicine or law, or a specialist profession such as marine biologist, then yes, a degree will be valuable.
If however the career path is less unclear, or still undecided, then I honestly believe that experience counts for more. For instance, I would rather employ a 21 year old who has left school with good A-Levels, and spent three years working hard gaining experience applicable to my work, than a 21 year old who has just left university with no experience whatsoever.
University can always be done later in life - the OU is good for this... it doesn't have to be done at 18.
If however the career path is less unclear, or still undecided, then I honestly believe that experience counts for more. For instance, I would rather employ a 21 year old who has left school with good A-Levels, and spent three years working hard gaining experience applicable to my work, than a 21 year old who has just left university with no experience whatsoever.
University can always be done later in life - the OU is good for this... it doesn't have to be done at 18.
Unfortunately with the number of degree trained people now, its going to become a simple filter for job applicants. Also a lot more jobs also now need degrees (and other formal qualifications) that didn't before. Soon you won't be able to work in McD's without a Degree.
My wife works in a Nursery, just to work there you need an NVQ. To actually get a job you really need the higher NVQ (so two years of night school). That gets you a minimum wage part time job. To operate a Nursery you will shortly need to have a specialist degree (hence two people at her Nursery are no back at school taking a degree).
I didn't get a degree. In my day you got one because you wanted a particular job, or felt the need to extend your education. Because the uptake was small the country could afford to pay for it + give you a grant.
My kids are fast aproaching Uni age, and they/we are going to struggle.
My wife works in a Nursery, just to work there you need an NVQ. To actually get a job you really need the higher NVQ (so two years of night school). That gets you a minimum wage part time job. To operate a Nursery you will shortly need to have a specialist degree (hence two people at her Nursery are no back at school taking a degree).
I didn't get a degree. In my day you got one because you wanted a particular job, or felt the need to extend your education. Because the uptake was small the country could afford to pay for it + give you a grant.
My kids are fast aproaching Uni age, and they/we are going to struggle.
I think it depends on the size of the company to a large extent too. For many big companies, it's just an easy way of weeding out a large number of applicants who are likely to be no good. Yes they'll miss the odd good person who just happens not to have a degree, but that's a price they're willing to pay for not having to interview thousands of useless people.
I suppose you could say that rather than evidence of useful knowledge, we view a (vaguely scientific) degree as evidence of the ability to think in the right kind of way.
Having said that, once you've got your foot in the door here it makes no difference. I don't think the people that make the promotion decisions here even have access to information about academic qualifications.
I suppose you could say that rather than evidence of useful knowledge, we view a (vaguely scientific) degree as evidence of the ability to think in the right kind of way.
Having said that, once you've got your foot in the door here it makes no difference. I don't think the people that make the promotion decisions here even have access to information about academic qualifications.
Edited by kambites on Friday 21st September 09:08
Should be clever kids of any background doing careers like medicine that need that level of knowledge sponsored by the taxpayer, not every kid for something to do for three years, the rest should learn on the job with day release, if you can't learn most jobs like that in two years the it is off to Tescos you go to stack biscuits. I have worked with some massively clever people without degrees and some with a degree that make me wonder how they got through.
I think as a country we are wasting a lot of time over educating people in the wrong subjects to go into a job that requires a degree that isn't relevant anyway, you have to have a degree to become a librarian on twelve grand ffs nowadays.
I think as a country we are wasting a lot of time over educating people in the wrong subjects to go into a job that requires a degree that isn't relevant anyway, you have to have a degree to become a librarian on twelve grand ffs nowadays.
I honestly think it is very dependant on the particular degree. As others have said if it is a degree in a subject directly linked to an industry then yes it is worth it as there are probably not many opportunities to progress without. Alternatively if you have a clear idea of what you want to do following the degree and the degree is required for that vocation then it is worth it. For others who are academic and have a genuine interest in a particular subject then a degree, phd post doc etc could be the most fulfilling route.
However if people are doing a degree just because everyone else is and they don't really have a passion for the subject or are not academically gifted then I would say it is a waste of time and money.
There are plenty of ways of making a good living without a degree and even some of the professions where you may assume a degree is necessary such as accounting have alternative routes. I manage a team in an office of engineers where I am one of the few without a phd. There is no obvious non degree route into my area of work but it is a highly specialised area, but it doesn't mean we are all very highly paid, you apparently earn more driving a fuel tanker!
However if people are doing a degree just because everyone else is and they don't really have a passion for the subject or are not academically gifted then I would say it is a waste of time and money.
There are plenty of ways of making a good living without a degree and even some of the professions where you may assume a degree is necessary such as accounting have alternative routes. I manage a team in an office of engineers where I am one of the few without a phd. There is no obvious non degree route into my area of work but it is a highly specialised area, but it doesn't mean we are all very highly paid, you apparently earn more driving a fuel tanker!
Dr Interceptor said:
Depends on the chosen career path - if its a profession such as medicine or law, or a specialist profession such as marine biologist, then yes, a degree will be valuable.
If however the career path is less unclear, or still undecided, then I honestly believe that experience counts for more. For instance, I would rather employ a 21 year old who has left school with good A-Levels, and spent three years working hard gaining experience applicable to my work, than a 21 year old who has just left university with no experience whatsoever.
University can always be done later in life - the OU is good for this... it doesn't have to be done at 18.
I'm going to go down the OU route, or Learning at work scheme?!?, I joined the forces at 17 with Only GCSE's, no A-Levels etc, Since then i've gained numerous qualifications, , one being a Foundation Degree in Electronic Engineering in which i wish to progress further, mainly because although i have the experience i fear it will not be enough when looking for a change of career in civvy street. i.e. up against other guys/girls with full degree's. But... thats not the main reason for topping up my degree, its more the learning aspect i will gain. If however the career path is less unclear, or still undecided, then I honestly believe that experience counts for more. For instance, I would rather employ a 21 year old who has left school with good A-Levels, and spent three years working hard gaining experience applicable to my work, than a 21 year old who has just left university with no experience whatsoever.
University can always be done later in life - the OU is good for this... it doesn't have to be done at 18.
Echoing the others really - its only worth it if you can't get the experience / skillset elsewhere or the line of work requires it e.g. Doctor or Lawyer or Engineer (I mean proper engineer here not the guy who fixes the Sky box!).
I would have done a more vocational course than mine but they didn't really exist when it was time for me to choose. I'm happy with how it turned out though. But I do have friends who have done degrees then gone and done something completely unassociated with the degrees - one mate has an online shop selling garden ornaments but has a 2:1 in biochemistry, he does well but he's only just paid off his student loan, something he wouldn't have had if he'd just gone straight to it. These days with £10Kpa loans its a bit of a bind and rightfully should make people think if its really necessary.
I don't think jobs will require degrees that don't need them unless the people running it are up their own a$$ because someone with a degree will correctly demand more money but if you want to climb high its a good starting point if you haven't got a brighter idea, but be sure you pick something that will tax you to the limit (pun intended).
I would have done a more vocational course than mine but they didn't really exist when it was time for me to choose. I'm happy with how it turned out though. But I do have friends who have done degrees then gone and done something completely unassociated with the degrees - one mate has an online shop selling garden ornaments but has a 2:1 in biochemistry, he does well but he's only just paid off his student loan, something he wouldn't have had if he'd just gone straight to it. These days with £10Kpa loans its a bit of a bind and rightfully should make people think if its really necessary.
I don't think jobs will require degrees that don't need them unless the people running it are up their own a$$ because someone with a degree will correctly demand more money but if you want to climb high its a good starting point if you haven't got a brighter idea, but be sure you pick something that will tax you to the limit (pun intended).
It always was, and will continue to be, a waste of money for people who went to uni for a degree with no plan of what to use it for. There's only so many jobs for film & tv graduates, or the endless amounts of geography, or international politics, or marine biology... etc
I picked my degree on the strength that it was a stable job market with a solid practical element that would be tricky to pick up on initially if you went straight into it. That decision has proved sound enough, earning a decent wage and not having trouble finding work.
Downsides :- I never particularly liked the job in the first place and that hasnt changed
I picked my degree on the strength that it was a stable job market with a solid practical element that would be tricky to pick up on initially if you went straight into it. That decision has proved sound enough, earning a decent wage and not having trouble finding work.
Downsides :- I never particularly liked the job in the first place and that hasnt changed
Gazzas86 said:
Dr Interceptor said:
Depends on the chosen career path - if its a profession such as medicine or law, or a specialist profession such as marine biologist, then yes, a degree will be valuable.
If however the career path is less unclear, or still undecided, then I honestly believe that experience counts for more. For instance, I would rather employ a 21 year old who has left school with good A-Levels, and spent three years working hard gaining experience applicable to my work, than a 21 year old who has just left university with no experience whatsoever.
University can always be done later in life - the OU is good for this... it doesn't have to be done at 18.
I'm going to go down the OU route, or Learning at work scheme?!?, I joined the forces at 17 with Only GCSE's, no A-Levels etc, Since then i've gained numerous qualifications, , one being a Foundation Degree in Electronic Engineering in which i wish to progress further, mainly because although i have the experience i fear it will not be enough when looking for a change of career in civvy street. i.e. up against other guys/girls with full degree's. But... thats not the main reason for topping up my degree, its more the learning aspect i will gain. If however the career path is less unclear, or still undecided, then I honestly believe that experience counts for more. For instance, I would rather employ a 21 year old who has left school with good A-Levels, and spent three years working hard gaining experience applicable to my work, than a 21 year old who has just left university with no experience whatsoever.
University can always be done later in life - the OU is good for this... it doesn't have to be done at 18.
The other thing I look at when going through CVs is the length of time people have held jobs for - I'm far more impressed by people who have done X number of years in a job before moving to another - over those who have spent a couple of months here and there. It shows commitment.
I recently took on a part time book keeper, she comes in and helps us tidy up loose ends with the accounts, processing purchase ledgers etc. She hasn't got a formal qualification for it, but has worked in accounts departments for a long time. She's computer and Sage literate and has a glowing reference - I don't need any more.
This podcast was an interesting listen a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/07/30/freakonomic...
http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/08/16/freakonomic...
It's about the US college system (which is even more expensive) and the value of it - lots of factors beyond the lifetime earnings question.
To massively generalise, I think there is massive value in completing an academic degree, assuming you are capable of doing so. I'd love to see better vocational education options for that sector, without it necessarily being degree-based.
(engineering dropout myself - the experience was worthwhile I think, but I went into a career where degrees don't really matter. Considering OU or similar to get myself up to scratch though).
http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/07/30/freakonomic...
http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/08/16/freakonomic...
It's about the US college system (which is even more expensive) and the value of it - lots of factors beyond the lifetime earnings question.
To massively generalise, I think there is massive value in completing an academic degree, assuming you are capable of doing so. I'd love to see better vocational education options for that sector, without it necessarily being degree-based.
(engineering dropout myself - the experience was worthwhile I think, but I went into a career where degrees don't really matter. Considering OU or similar to get myself up to scratch though).
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