Its All About the Money !
Discussion
I'm an IT Contractor with about 15 years experience in my field of work. I am currently exasperated with Recruitment Agents who are unable to tell me what daily rate the client has in mind thus forcing me to stipulate a daily rate. To me this is just bullsh*t from the agent who just wants to submit the 3 lowest rates to maximise their daily percentage.
I'm fully aware of the preferred supplier process and I am hoping that the clients have done their due diligence in making sure that the agents aren't screwing them over, but I am now believing that the agent scum are taking larger and larger cuts.
If I do get an interview it's virtually impossible to get a daily rate value from the interviewers since they are usually removed from the money element of the contract.
I am wondering what strategy I can employ so that (a) my CV gets on to the desk of the client, (b) I dont sell myself short just to satisfy (a).
Rgds
Richard
I'm fully aware of the preferred supplier process and I am hoping that the clients have done their due diligence in making sure that the agents aren't screwing them over, but I am now believing that the agent scum are taking larger and larger cuts.
If I do get an interview it's virtually impossible to get a daily rate value from the interviewers since they are usually removed from the money element of the contract.
I am wondering what strategy I can employ so that (a) my CV gets on to the desk of the client, (b) I dont sell myself short just to satisfy (a).
Rgds
Richard
Why don't you just cut out the agency and find your own work, sort your contract paperwork and chase the client direct for payment? A good agency should give you ballpark on rate and disclose their margin, but bear in mind that in most instances it's the client who plays hardball, not entirely fair to blame the agency and if you think they're scum, find work yourself or go perm.
From experience, the agency is attempting to pull the wool over your eyes.
I know the daily rate (because I set it) and we give the agency the range upfront.
I have no real interest in what the candidate is getting paid (that's their responsibility) but would absolutely talk to a (good) candidate anything they wanted to know about the job specification and renumeration. In fact, I'd prefer to - I've been in positions where a good contractor has chosen not to renew because of the massive cut the agency was taking, despite them wanting to continue the work and recognising we're paying more than fairly.
What field of IT BTW?
I know the daily rate (because I set it) and we give the agency the range upfront.
I have no real interest in what the candidate is getting paid (that's their responsibility) but would absolutely talk to a (good) candidate anything they wanted to know about the job specification and renumeration. In fact, I'd prefer to - I've been in positions where a good contractor has chosen not to renew because of the massive cut the agency was taking, despite them wanting to continue the work and recognising we're paying more than fairly.
What field of IT BTW?
There is a school of thought that says the agent isn't taking a cut of your rate, you're taking a cut of his. There is no reason for the agent to tell you what the client is looking to pay - that's their business. You are only concerned with what you and the agent can agree on. And if you don't know what your expected/required rate is, then you're doing it wrong 
rog007 said:
Make sure you're CV is top-drawer (PM me!) and send direct, and never sell yourself short. If you chase the lowest rate, people will think you're low quality and may not hire you as a result. It may feel counter intuitive, but value yourself at the right level. Good luck!
+1you don't want spelling or grammar mistakes, this guy sounds like he knows his stuff
sorry 
Blue62 said:
Why don't you just cut out the agency and find your own work
Because 99% of companies use an agency so that they don't have to **** about recruiting and dealing with a load of small invoices every month.The only time I've been direct was with a company I'd worked for a few years earlier. As I happened to know my old rate AND the rate the agency charged I went in at just below the agents rate, expecting to haggle for a 50/50 split and they said yes that's fine when can you start
Damn, should have gone higher!Currently looking for software test contract (14 years experience, waterfall, agile etc, SQL, QC blah blah) in the South East if anyones looking for someone - happy to go direct
or via agency. bigandclever said:
There is a school of thought that says the agent isn't taking a cut of your rate, you're taking a cut of his. There is no reason for the agent to tell you what the client is looking to pay - that's their business. You are only concerned with what you and the agent can agree on. And if you don't know what your expected/required rate is, then you're doing it wrong
Do you genuinely believe this? To me an agent is a sales person who needs to find the right candidate to fill the clients role. If he / she does not find the right candidate they do not get paid, if they find the right candidate they get commission. It is up to the agent to sell the candidate to the client in the best possible way, to secure the role, as the more candidates he / she has to put forward the costlier it gets and the more chance one of the other agencies will fill the spot with their candidate first. The candidate is bringing qualifications and experience to the table, the agent is bringing a connection. I would have expected an agency to charge a fixed percentage on the day rate to cover their costs / profits, that way, advertising a high day rate should attract a higher caliber of candidate. Also most likely there will be other people in similar roles taken on, if over a coffee people realise that others are on varying day rates, it's not long before that agency gets a reputation for itself. So for the short term gains of being an ass, it will most likely come back to bite you in the ......
jamoor said:
To be fair you shouldn't be bothered what the client is paying the agency, just be bothered about what you're getting paid.
JamoorI seriously think that you are being very green. Contractors are in business not employment. If a contractor is ignorant of the agents cut then they might be thinking that the client is getting "value for money" while all the while the client is saying "this chaps bloody expensive". How can that be good business.
I am always keen to know exactly what the client is paying. This gives me an understanding of what the client is initially thinking of my work. A number of years ago I had to remonstrate with a total f*ckwit of a manager of a client who tried to tell me that it wasnt my concern to know. It hit him hard when I didnt renew. In that situation there were 2 not 1 intermediaries and both were taking a piece of the pie and the rate was really cr*p.
Rgds
Richard
richarda0109 said:
Jamoor
I seriously think that you are being very green. Contractors are in business not employment. If a contractor is ignorant of the agents cut then they might be thinking that the client is getting "value for money" while all the while the client is saying "this chaps bloody expensive". How can that be good business.
Do you provide the agencies with a breakdown of your living costs so they can see if they are overpaying for your services?I seriously think that you are being very green. Contractors are in business not employment. If a contractor is ignorant of the agents cut then they might be thinking that the client is getting "value for money" while all the while the client is saying "this chaps bloody expensive". How can that be good business.
Like you (or your Ltd company at least) the agencies are a business. Without understanding their cost base and commercials then the rate they are getting has limited value other than to wind you up.
Do you have an appreciation of what sometimes goes in to making a placement with a client and how much all of that costs? I'll use a recent example of a job I tried to fill which is a really old technology where the client needed someone Security Cleared, it took me and one other weeks to find the right person (this is on a contract by the way - not permanent).
I completely understand that often agencies can take the michael but you do need to be careful how you tread because if any of my contractors wanted to know the margin I would be pretty upset about it simply because in most cases, I worked 6 days a week, 12-14 hour days, searching people, asking for referrals and repeating all of the above until I found someone, that person could have been YOU in any case!
You say that you like to know how much margin the agency is taking but each company pay different rates, if your not happy with that then try look for something else surely?
Its easy to look at the money an agency is making because stereotypically we are all tied with the same brush but just try to be professional about it and look at the bigger picture. Obviously I say this from the other side of the fence, I'm working with someone at the moment where on face value we are taking about 25% Margin BUT then the payment terms with the client is over 90 days so as a company, we have to consider that - thats not to mention the cost of payrolling, accounting fees, legal fees, salaries, resource and other costs too. Don't just think that margin is all going on a holiday to Barbados!
I don't mean to sound as if what you're saying is wrong and I'm not being blunt but a lot goes in to certain placements so just be conscious of this when you are hassling managers and agents about whos getting the biggest piece of cake.
I completely understand that often agencies can take the michael but you do need to be careful how you tread because if any of my contractors wanted to know the margin I would be pretty upset about it simply because in most cases, I worked 6 days a week, 12-14 hour days, searching people, asking for referrals and repeating all of the above until I found someone, that person could have been YOU in any case!
You say that you like to know how much margin the agency is taking but each company pay different rates, if your not happy with that then try look for something else surely?
Its easy to look at the money an agency is making because stereotypically we are all tied with the same brush but just try to be professional about it and look at the bigger picture. Obviously I say this from the other side of the fence, I'm working with someone at the moment where on face value we are taking about 25% Margin BUT then the payment terms with the client is over 90 days so as a company, we have to consider that - thats not to mention the cost of payrolling, accounting fees, legal fees, salaries, resource and other costs too. Don't just think that margin is all going on a holiday to Barbados!
I don't mean to sound as if what you're saying is wrong and I'm not being blunt but a lot goes in to certain placements so just be conscious of this when you are hassling managers and agents about whos getting the biggest piece of cake.
Afternoon,
In days gone by I used to work as a contract recruiter within financial services and several of my large clients refused to tell me what they wanted to pay- it was basically a blind auction and you used to have to use your market knowledge (and pray) to get it right.
It's not always smoke and mirrors.
Best of luck.
In days gone by I used to work as a contract recruiter within financial services and several of my large clients refused to tell me what they wanted to pay- it was basically a blind auction and you used to have to use your market knowledge (and pray) to get it right.
It's not always smoke and mirrors.
Best of luck.
On the flip side, imagine if a candidate who has in previous contracts been on £250 per day, comes across a role advertised and calls up the Recruitment Consultant. He asks the Rec Con what the role is paying and he tells him £400. The candidate then says that's fine, gets put forward for the role and subsequently gets offered the role.
Now, from the client's perspective they are paying £400 +agency margin for a contractor that they could have secured for much less than that.
Quite often we work to a fixed margin with clients, and it is the job of the Recruitment Consultant to save the client as much money as possible, but also ensure the candidate is happy with the rate being offered. It's a juggling act.
In the current market, quite often The 'Agent scum' as you so kindly put it, are having margins squeezed.
I understand OP's comment about wanting to ensure the client is not feeling like they are being ripped off, but that should partly be the role of the Recruitment Consultant. Any good consultant will make an effort to go out and meet with both Contractor and Client where possible. This helps to make sure that the Contractor is happy with the rate they are being paid in relation to the work they are doing, and that the Client is happy with the work they are receiving for the rate they are paying.
If you are so concerned about 'Agent scum' then you can always try and find your next contract directly.
You also mention PSL agencies. It does help if the agency is on the PSL, but on occasion it is not always essential. Depending on your specific skill set, some roles can be very niche and hard to fill. The more niche consultancies do not intend on becoming PSL status, but add value in the more specific roles where a traditional PSL may struggle. I have successfully placed a number of Contractors in roles where the client has come to me after the PSL has struggled with the role for several weeks.
Now, from the client's perspective they are paying £400 +agency margin for a contractor that they could have secured for much less than that.
Quite often we work to a fixed margin with clients, and it is the job of the Recruitment Consultant to save the client as much money as possible, but also ensure the candidate is happy with the rate being offered. It's a juggling act.
In the current market, quite often The 'Agent scum' as you so kindly put it, are having margins squeezed.
I understand OP's comment about wanting to ensure the client is not feeling like they are being ripped off, but that should partly be the role of the Recruitment Consultant. Any good consultant will make an effort to go out and meet with both Contractor and Client where possible. This helps to make sure that the Contractor is happy with the rate they are being paid in relation to the work they are doing, and that the Client is happy with the work they are receiving for the rate they are paying.
If you are so concerned about 'Agent scum' then you can always try and find your next contract directly.
You also mention PSL agencies. It does help if the agency is on the PSL, but on occasion it is not always essential. Depending on your specific skill set, some roles can be very niche and hard to fill. The more niche consultancies do not intend on becoming PSL status, but add value in the more specific roles where a traditional PSL may struggle. I have successfully placed a number of Contractors in roles where the client has come to me after the PSL has struggled with the role for several weeks.
topless_mx5 said:
Quite often we work to a fixed margin with clients, and it is the job of the Recruitment Consultant to save the client as much money as possible, but also ensure the candidate is happy with the rate being offered. It's a juggling act.
No no no, the agents job is to get as much as possible out of the client without taking the piss and pay the contractor as little as possible while still ensuring they are good enough. It's about the margin.Some savvy clients know all this hence the preferred supplier route they take with agencies and fixed margin percentages.
The example about about 250->400 meaning the client is paying too much is actually a contractor who was charging too little.
All depends on your viewpoint.
Mike
MH said:
topless_mx5 said:
Quite often we work to a fixed margin with clients, and it is the job of the Recruitment Consultant to save the client as much money as possible, but also ensure the candidate is happy with the rate being offered. It's a juggling act.
No no no, the agents job is to get as much as possible out of the client without taking the piss and pay the contractor as little as possible while still ensuring they are good enough. It's about the margin.Mike
My moto has always been Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered. I've seen people do deals at 40% margins and have a fantastic few months or even years. In the end though I believe it's more sustainable in the long run to do honest and reasonable business.
If I find a contractor who is happy working at a rate lower than that anticipated by the client, I will try and pass on a portion of that saving to the client or pay a bit more to the candidate. A deal has to keep everyone happy, including the Agency, Candidate and Client. I find that works out better for all involved, and avoids nasty surprises down the line when your Contractor finds out that you are earning nearly as much as they are.
topless_mx5 said:
I guess that depends on where your priorities lie and how you do business.
My moto has always been Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered. I've seen people do deals at 40% margins and have a fantastic few months or even years. In the end though I believe it's more sustainable in the long run to do honest and reasonable business.
If I find a contractor who is happy working at a rate lower than that anticipated by the client, I will try and pass on a portion of that saving to the client or pay a bit more to the candidate. A deal has to keep everyone happy, including the Agency, Candidate and Client. I find that works out better for all involved, and avoids nasty surprises down the line when your Contractor finds out that you are earning nearly as much as they are.
Couldn't agree more, and this is exactly how I've been mentored by top performers.My moto has always been Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered. I've seen people do deals at 40% margins and have a fantastic few months or even years. In the end though I believe it's more sustainable in the long run to do honest and reasonable business.
If I find a contractor who is happy working at a rate lower than that anticipated by the client, I will try and pass on a portion of that saving to the client or pay a bit more to the candidate. A deal has to keep everyone happy, including the Agency, Candidate and Client. I find that works out better for all involved, and avoids nasty surprises down the line when your Contractor finds out that you are earning nearly as much as they are.
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