Is my job redundant?

[B19GRR]

Hi all,

Work has got weird of late, I've been heading up a small development team for a few years, line managing up to a dozen staff at one point. A re-org a year back moved most of them to another manager, then a switch to outsourcing ending up in the remaining two being made redundant at the end of 2012. One was offered a so called "equivalent" job in another dept which he took. So that's leaving me on my tod with bugger all to do apart from 5 minutes here or there when someone needs a tweak to something, so not exactly hard work.

My manager has said he's working on a new job profile for me with a different set of responsibilities. I've seen a rough draft and it seems to be 80/20 split of drudgery, sorry I mean, strat/documentation vs development, whereas I'm currently 80/20 dev vs drudgery. To me it doesn't seem like a reasonable change, definitely not an equivalent role and will require upskilling in project management/business analysis which I don't have much interest in at all.

So do I just tell my manager outright that I want to be made redundant (got my appraisal soon) or just hint at it? When my last two guys were made redundant I was told in no uncertain terms that my job was not at risk but that it would have to change as described. Can the company just change my role significantly like they're proposing, is the fact there's still a very nominal amount of dev work in the new role enough to justify the rest?

Cheers,
Rob

[craigjm]

What do you want the outcome to be?

[B19GRR]

Well basically I'm not enjoying how the department has changed, and the whole faceless corporate side of the company is definitely wearing me down, so if there was an opportunity to leave and give me a bit of a safety net then I wouldn't be adverse to redundancy.

Cheers,
Rob

[craigjm]

B19GRR said:

Well basically I'm not enjoying how the department has changed, and the whole faceless corporate side of the company is definitely wearing me down, so if there was an opportunity to leave and give me a bit of a safety net then I wouldn't be adverse to redundancy.

Cheers,
Rob

If that's the case it might be worth raising the subject and discussing a compromise agreement of redundancy and pay in lieu of notice wrapped up.

[grumbledoak]

I think you have already been given a less than subtle hint to seek employment elsewhere.

[otherman]

Have you any idea what sort of packages your company offers? If they're going to push you out with £2k or something, then just start the job hunt now. On the other hand if there's a substantial compromise (a year's salary or some such) then chase that.

[davepoth]

grumbledoak said:

I think you have already been given a less than subtle hint to seek employment elsewhere.

I'd agree. Don't be a mug and take redundancy while you don't have a new job to go to - start looking ASAP.

[craigjm]

otherman said:

Have you any idea what sort of packages your company offers? If they're going to push you out with £2k or something, then just start the job hunt now. On the other hand if there's a substantial compromise (a year's salary or some such) then chase that.

A years salary compromise? please tell me where you are ever likely to get that.

I think he will be lucky in a compromise situation to get 3 months PILON and his redundancy but remember that up to 30k compensation is tax free so it will feel like more in terms of monthly take home salary.

[elanfan]

OP - how long have you been there?

[B19GRR]

The company does have a very generous redundancy policy, I think I'd get around 6 months salary which would do very nicely, hence my interest in pursuing, if it was just a month or so I'd be history by now. I definitely appreciate the comment about having a job before leaving but that could be a very difficult situation to manage, all a bit chicken and egg really.

I would say though that my problem would be that the upper management have a very head in the sand attitude, and glacial response time, and may well consider what they're doing to be perfectly fair so it would be up to me to argue that I the new set of responsibilities isn't equivalent to my current position.

This whole process is just something I'm completely unfamiliar with, so rocking up to my appraisal and telling my manager that I should be made redundant just seems like a fantasy!

Cheers,
Rob

[0a]

OP start looking now - ensure that whatever happens you this ends up as a positive for you (eg a new job you want to do), it will put you in a far stronger situation.

[B19GRR]

elanfan said:

OP - how long have you been there?

As a permanent employee now for 4 years, I had a 3 month intro contract working on a freelance basis through an umbrella co, doing the exact job I was taken on as but I don't know if that would have any relevance on redundancy package. Actually saying that I was doing the exact same job is bit misleading as I've always done more than my job description. I wasn't supposed to have been a line manager for some time but within 2 weeks of starting (as a contractor) I was line managing at least 6 people.

Cheers,
Rob

[B19GRR]

0a said:

OP start looking now - ensure that whatever happens you this ends up as a positive for you (eg a new job you want to do), it will put you in a far stronger situation.

Yup, dusting off the CV now, time for some creative writing Thinking about relocating back up north too, so this could be a good opportunity, might apply to become a train driver, that sounds good to me!

Cheers,
Rob

[rog007]

Once these discussions begin, it's often clear that the decision has been made informally that one is about go be on the move. The trick is to manage any move to get the best outcome.

So you've decided to leave: need to stay on good terms; don't rush anything; sort out CV; identify future desires then spread net widely to improve chances of success; don't rush anything (deliberately repeated!). Good luck!

[otherman]

craigjm said:

A years salary compromise? please tell me where you are ever likely to get that.

I thought we were all company directors around here.

[B19GRR]

Just to bring this one back from the dead. I'm still there which is a bit of a PITA, to say things have moved glacially is an understatement but I've finally started talking with HR. However they've said that my position is not redundant as they've created a new role for me crafted to my needs based on what I've said in past appraisals which came as a bit of a body blow to be honest. That's naturally put me on the back foot as I now have to argue against this new position - which is absolutely not what I want to be doing with my life! I've reviewed my past appraisals and in all of them I've asked for training in Project Management as well as general people management but all within the context of it helping me to do better at my current role, so I feel I'm on solid ground there, however I've just never been in this sort of situation before and obviously I'm up against a hard ball player from HR who's currently tasked with culling a lot of staff, just I'm not one of them it seems sue to me being recognised talent. I'm not sure when they recognised me, possibly the second I piped up and said make me redundant!

The so called new job is in first draft as opposed to me having been properly consulted over it, certainly no mention has been made of pay changes or seniority within the dept. It's still the same draft job description that I was given back in November, shortly before I ended up taking a month off due to depression caused partly by being dropped in at the deep end in a project I had no support with and no back up. Other than that 2012 proved to be a truly stty year for me with my partner having a cancer scare and me finally having to admit defeat and take on an IVA due to being screwed over by my ex, so not really surprising that I've been a bit blue. Whilst I'm much more on top of things now, this year has been trying on the work front just because of the slowness of this whole process that I raised back in January. I've still been going in to the office but if I do an hours work a week I'm being pushed so I'm going insane with boredom.

On the plus side my union feel I do have a strong case for redundancy and are recommending that's what I continue to push for but unfortunately as I'm a new member they wouldn't be able to offer me any legal representation if it went to a tribunal, and with my current finances I couldn't afford to take on counsel either so I doubt I'd stand a chance in a tribunal. Apparently HR have also said to my union rep that they would be willing to offer me a compensation package if I were to resign, HR said 5 weeks pay (my notice period so I presume PILON) but union rep thinks that's unacceptable and would need to be negotiated up. The question that comes to my mind is why they would be willing to do that? Are they implicitly recognising that my role is redundant and just want shot of me quietly, or am I reading too much in to that?

To be honest I'm not sure what I'm asking for here although just being able to get things off my chest is good and any sympathetic ears are appreciated! I've got my next meeting in a couple of days where I have to go in and argue my case again which is very daunting and my stress levels are through the roof already - real men don't need sleep and if I throw my lungs up I'll still be alive right? So any thoughts or advice will be gratefully received.

Cheers,
Rob

[edc]

It's difficult to advise on such a situation from afar and without any further detail. However your 80/20 vs 20/80 split may indicate that this redeployment role is essentially a new role. Whether or not it is a suitable alternative would be determined by the difference in terms and conditions.

On the basis that there is no difference and that the new role requires only some job specific retraining then it is likely that the new role would be deemed a suitable alternative and the onus would be on you to show some other reason for an unreasonable refusal of the new role.

The reality check, and only you know the dynamics of relationships internally, is that you speak to your line manager and say that the new role does not tick your boxes and will not hold your interest long-term. Is there a voluntary redundancy scheme in place?

If the new role is genuinely a new role and different to what you do then the discussion will turn around there being a statutory trial period during which time either party can close and you would still be entitled to redundancy. In this situation though I believe the company may not be under and obligation to pay company enhanced redundancy payments.

[B19GRR]

Hi Ed, thanks for the comments.

edc said:

It's difficult to advise on such a situation from afar and without any further detail. However your 80/20 vs 20/80 split may indicate that this redeployment role is essentially a new role. Whether or not it is a suitable alternative would be determined by the difference in terms and conditions.

On the basis that there is no difference and that the new role requires only some job specific retraining then it is likely that the new role would be deemed a suitable alternative and the onus would be on you to show some other reason for an unreasonable refusal of the new role.

My opinion is that the new role is completely different. I'm currently a developer tasked with writing and maintaining code for some of the departments platforms. The new role is purely managerial, tasked with working with other teams (internal and external) to manage the development/migration/integration of new platforms/tool. It's a odd combination of Business Analyst, Technical Project Manager and Technical Architect. It doesn't involve doing any day to day coding.

edc said:

The reality check, and only you know the dynamics of relationships internally, is that you speak to your line manager and say that the new role does not tick your boxes and will not hold your interest long-term. Is there a voluntary redundancy scheme in place?

I've done this, I raised my opinions at my appraisal in January and commented on the provided job description pointing out the skills I feel would be needed for each highlighted task. I also said that it's a role I would never apply for if I were looking for work as it doesn't fit my skill set or desires. So that, slightly hijacked, appraisal is what has led us to our current situation. In the meantime I've had a couple of meetings with my line manager reiterating my opinion that I'm not the right fit for the new role and that the work doesn't interest me. Unfortunately there aren't any voluntary redundancies going on at the moment.

edc said:

If the new role is genuinely a new role and different to what you do then the discussion will turn around there being a statutory trial period during which time either party can close and you would still be entitled to redundancy. In this situation though I believe the company may not be under and obligation to pay company enhanced redundancy payments.

My union rep mentioned in passing doing a four week trial but I wasn't 100% clear on the implications of that. In many respects I've already done the trial back in November, albeit only lasting two weeks before I went on sick leave so I'm not sure if that would count or not :/

Cheers,
Rob

[edc]

You have had a statutory trial as far back as November? If so the horse has well and truly bolted. It is not clear from your post what process you have actually gone through and what letters documentation there is to back this up. Your best bet is to see somebody but write up a chronological order all the events that have happened and supported by letters issued by your company. Without this it is impossible to tell whether the correct process has been followed in your case or not.

[B19GRR]

edc said:

You have had a statutory trial as far back as November? If so the horse has well and truly bolted. It is not clear from your post what process you have actually gone through and what letters documentation there is to back this up. Your best bet is to see somebody but write up a chronological order all the events that have happened and supported by letters issued by your company. Without this it is impossible to tell whether the correct process has been followed in your case or not.

No, it wasn't an official statutory trial, sorry I wasn't very clear, I meant that in effect I had done a trial but I doubt it would be recognised. I had no real idea of where my role was going at that time so agreed to work on the projects my line manager asked me to as I had nothing else to do at the time. It was as it turned out business analyst work so not within my skill set and I naturally struggled, made worse by the complete lack of support I received.

I've made up a timeline but other than the draft job description and training plan (laughable) I've had nothing else from the company. I'm assembling copies of my appraisal documents, my annotated copy of the job description (highlighting the lack of equivalence) and anything else I can dig out of my email archive in the hope that I can disprove HR's statement that the new role has been crafted around my specifically requested development needs.

Cheers,
Rob