Employer rights
Discussion
Hello
Looking for some urgent advice regarding employer/employee rights.
Currently employ a UK Sales Manager who for the last few months has not been bringing in enough business to justify his/her salary.
The person claims that our products are now too expensive and our service is not as good as the competition.
Following a number of meetings we have agreed to set a target over the next 3 months to justify his/her existence.
The person is reluctant to sign this agreement claiming if he/she signs they are effectively agreeing to it and at the end of the 3 months i (the employer) could go into a disciplinary procedure with them and dismiss them
I have said if they don't sign it, we will have to go into disciplinary procedure, which they claims is bullying & blackmail
1) Can i do the latter (threaten with disciplinary action if they don't sign)
2) can they refuse to sign and if so what are my rights as an employer
3) Their employment contract doesn't have any mention of targets
4) They claim it is constructive dismissal, due to our product range and recent customer surveys came back quite negative to be honest.
Could do with some constructive advice please Thanks
Looking for some urgent advice regarding employer/employee rights.
Currently employ a UK Sales Manager who for the last few months has not been bringing in enough business to justify his/her salary.
The person claims that our products are now too expensive and our service is not as good as the competition.
Following a number of meetings we have agreed to set a target over the next 3 months to justify his/her existence.
The person is reluctant to sign this agreement claiming if he/she signs they are effectively agreeing to it and at the end of the 3 months i (the employer) could go into a disciplinary procedure with them and dismiss them
I have said if they don't sign it, we will have to go into disciplinary procedure, which they claims is bullying & blackmail
1) Can i do the latter (threaten with disciplinary action if they don't sign)
2) can they refuse to sign and if so what are my rights as an employer
3) Their employment contract doesn't have any mention of targets
4) They claim it is constructive dismissal, due to our product range and recent customer surveys came back quite negative to be honest.
Could do with some constructive advice please Thanks
1) Can i do the latter (threaten with disciplinary action if they don't sign)
Yes. The employee would be refusing to obey a reasonable instruction.
2) can they refuse to sign and if so what are my rights as an employer
See above. You could conduct a fair disciplinary procedure.
3) Their employment contract doesn't have any mention of targets
This doesn't matter. The contract cannot regulate every aspect of the job. Targets are a management matter. They should of course be reasonable.
4) They claim it is constructive dismissal, due to our product range and recent customer surveys came back quite negative to be honest.
You would have to act in a manner which destroys trust and confidence or otherwise repudiates the employment contract, for a constructive dismissal case to succeed.
The overall answer is: manage the situation, carefully and reasonably. Be firm but fair. You have the right to manage the business. As you seem uncertain, you might wish to retain an HR consultancy or a lawyer.
Yes. The employee would be refusing to obey a reasonable instruction.
2) can they refuse to sign and if so what are my rights as an employer
See above. You could conduct a fair disciplinary procedure.
3) Their employment contract doesn't have any mention of targets
This doesn't matter. The contract cannot regulate every aspect of the job. Targets are a management matter. They should of course be reasonable.
4) They claim it is constructive dismissal, due to our product range and recent customer surveys came back quite negative to be honest.
You would have to act in a manner which destroys trust and confidence or otherwise repudiates the employment contract, for a constructive dismissal case to succeed.
The overall answer is: manage the situation, carefully and reasonably. Be firm but fair. You have the right to manage the business. As you seem uncertain, you might wish to retain an HR consultancy or a lawyer.
Blackmail? blimey, what sort of chimp did you hire.
Sounds like your three months is a good deal, but possibly too long. usually performance management for an employee is a little shorter.
If they don't like the product, prices or service then they probably shouldn't be representing your business anyway.
Sounds like your three months is a good deal, but possibly too long. usually performance management for an employee is a little shorter.
If they don't like the product, prices or service then they probably shouldn't be representing your business anyway.
Err Indoors said:
2 years, good employee well liked in the trade. Just not delivering.
Follow Breadvan's advice and manage the process. I would seriously consider consulting someone to advise you properly. It will be well worth the money.If less than 2 years you can be a little more cavalier.
Err Indoors said:
desolate said:
how long has the employee been employed?
2 years, good employee well liked in the trade. Just not delivering.The horse has bolted but perhaps you can talk in terms of performance/PIP rather than disciplinary in the first instance.
Err Indoors said:
desolate said:
how long has the employee been employed?
2 years, good employee well liked in the trade. Just not delivering.Whilst Breadvan's advice naturally deals with the legalities of the situation, could the OP comment on whether the ASM's comments might actually be valid? Can you state for certain that your product/service/value proposition is nothing like what he claims? Could it be his area/market has different requirements to others - what is a winner in one segment is a lemon in another?
I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
MotorcyclesFish said:
Whilst Breadvan's advice naturally deals with the legalities of the situation, could the OP comment on whether the ASM's comments might actually be valid? Can you state for certain that your product/service/value proposition is nothing like what he claims? Could it be his area/market has different requirements to others - what is a winner in one segment is a lemon in another?
I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
I tend to agree with the above. I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
Clearly it's only a post on the 'net but in your OP you don't appear to have the information to refute what the sales manager is saying about your offering and service.
Apologies if you haven't posted all the info but I'd be hearing alarm bells if that's real customer feedback and be wanting to get to the bottom of it before I fired the messenger.
GadgeS3C said:
MotorcyclesFish said:
Whilst Breadvan's advice naturally deals with the legalities of the situation, could the OP comment on whether the ASM's comments might actually be valid? Can you state for certain that your product/service/value proposition is nothing like what he claims? Could it be his area/market has different requirements to others - what is a winner in one segment is a lemon in another?
I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
I tend to agree with the above. I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
Clearly it's only a post on the 'net but in your OP you don't appear to have the information to refute what the sales manager is saying about your offering and service.
Apologies if you haven't posted all the info but I'd be hearing alarm bells if that's real customer feedback and be wanting to get to the bottom of it before I fired the messenger.
while it's nice and convenient to assume it's the Sales manager who is not performing - it's no good expecting cider if you gave him a barrel of lemons ...
Err Indoors said:
2 years, good employee well liked in the trade. Just not delivering.
Meant to add - also consider that, as he's well known and respected in your industry, if you get rid of him what affect will that have on your reputation. Especially if his feedback on your offering is correct...
GadgeS3C said:
MotorcyclesFish said:
Whilst Breadvan's advice naturally deals with the legalities of the situation, could the OP comment on whether the ASM's comments might actually be valid? Can you state for certain that your product/service/value proposition is nothing like what he claims? Could it be his area/market has different requirements to others - what is a winner in one segment is a lemon in another?
I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
I tend to agree with the above. I imagine the situation whereby you might only discover his comments are valid after rapidly cycling through 2-3 new ASMs for that region - you've then lost an experienced ASM through lack of market analysis/benchmarking.
I'm not suggesting you've been negligent but from the original post these details aren't clear.
The point of this is that the need for performance management might be obviated.
Clearly it's only a post on the 'net but in your OP you don't appear to have the information to refute what the sales manager is saying about your offering and service.
Apologies if you haven't posted all the info but I'd be hearing alarm bells if that's real customer feedback and be wanting to get to the bottom of it before I fired the messenger.
We are a distributor for an foreign business who tend not to be as reactive in the UK market place and yes they are expensive but good quality. The UK supplier are cheaper/poorer quality but fir for purpose.
Apparently i am in my legal rights to instruct the employee to sign this agreement according to ACAS.
If the Sales Manager who is no fool could prove from a customer survey that we are non competitive in certain areas would he have case. As i mentioned i have threatened said person with a disciplinary if they refuse to sign.
If all goes Pete Tong, an Employment Tribunal does not act as a court of appeal on management judgments, but the employer has to act reasonably, so a performance target must be reasonable. You can't just set an employee up to fail (well, you can, but you have to be subtle about it).
OP, from your opening post, you sound inexperienced in these matters. if you have limited in-house HR expertise, buy some in. Handling a performance appraisal, and any consequent dismissal, requires care. On the business side, you may well need to find another product line to sell, but that's a matter for you.
OP, from your opening post, you sound inexperienced in these matters. if you have limited in-house HR expertise, buy some in. Handling a performance appraisal, and any consequent dismissal, requires care. On the business side, you may well need to find another product line to sell, but that's a matter for you.
PS: a general note on employment protection qualifying periods, to clarify what others have said above.
Employments that started on or after 6 April 2012 have to continue for two years before the employee can claim unfair dismissal (there are some exceptions, but I am talking bog standard unfair dismissal).
If an employee started work before 6 April 2012, he or she only needs a year of service before he or she has unfair dismissal protection.
Employments that started on or after 6 April 2012 have to continue for two years before the employee can claim unfair dismissal (there are some exceptions, but I am talking bog standard unfair dismissal).
If an employee started work before 6 April 2012, he or she only needs a year of service before he or she has unfair dismissal protection.
Davel said:
Just one quick point.
If the points made by this guy are correct and you get rid of him and replace him with someone else - won't these issues still be a problem and with a lesser known newby?
this has been the gist of a number of posters points - while it;s the powerfully built be-goateed thing to 'Performance manage' (i.e. bully) the existing chap out - if his concerns about the product and price are correct ...If the points made by this guy are correct and you get rid of him and replace him with someone else - won't these issues still be a problem and with a lesser known newby?
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