Sickness Leave

[V8 Animal]

How long can a employee legaly take sick leave?
I have a member off sick with stress for 6 months and a sick note for 2 more months. I have to keep this position open just in case the employee turns up whenever that may be. I have a letter from the employees doctor confirming stress. The Doctor says this could continue for a year. Where does this leave me legally?

[uknick]

What does your company policy say on sick leave?

My last organisation allowed 14 days sick in a year. If sick not work related then action was started to dismiss the person. Process took time and gave lots of chances for the employee to sort it out, but at the end of the day if they are always sick then they are not of benefit to the organisation.

[craigjm]

Many companies look at sickness the wrong way. When someone is off sick they are not on sick leave they are absent from work and not fulfilling their employment contract. Change the language and start talking about sickness absence. Calling it leave makes it appear as a benefit. Your company will have a sickness absence policy if the HR department knows what it is doing and this will contain guidance at what to do at what stage. A decent policy will state that you can have so many days (or instances) per year without action but then you will hit "trigger points" in the policy where managers must take action. They will also guide on what pay someone will get.

If they have been off for six months they you really should be looking at moving to dismiss. Is the stress related to work?

[mph1977]

firstly I hope none of the 'sack them if they are off for more than 2 weeks types' ever have a serious injury or illness, as just to top someone's rehab with a P45 ...

Attendance monitoring, duration of sickness and sick pay are actually 3 seperate things .

1. Sick pay is a purely contractual matter beyond SSP. Discussions of this topic on PH are often fraught ... primarily down to two things

a. The 'powerfully built' and be -goateed Company directors ( an awful lot of whom appear to actually be tradesmen or 'contractors' rather than true Director level appoints - although there are some. ) seem to think that having Occupational sick pay 'encourages' sickness absence and that attendance through a period of illness is somehow 'proof ' of manliness.

b. the kind of bullst that abounds over the 'gold plated' public sector T+Cs - despite the fact that NHS sickness absence for clinical staff runs at 4 point something % - including the 'enforced' periods of sickness absence due to IPC issues. where there are stories put about by those with an axe to grind about people having 'years' off on the sick straight after starting a job and receiving full pay while off sick. NHS sick pay tops out at 6 months 'full' and 6 months 'half' pay and that;s after 5 years service and unless you are back for several months the clock the does not restart.

2.Duration of absence should be be a clinically driven issue especially with long term absence, here having Occupational health in place can help. Some people thought the revision of the Med 4 into the 'fit note' was window dressing but it's a valid tool if used correctly.

3. episode monitoring is important but if you aren't careful you can create a perverse incentive to stay off work - an example of such is the blind application of a rule over episodes where someone cracks a tooth or has a tooth abscess where they may take a day or two off initially for the antibiotics etc to kick in then come back to work while completing the course of antibiotics before taking another day or two off following the dentists intervention ( i.e. extracting the broken tooth)

[mph1977]

craigjm said:

Many companies look at sickness the wrong way. When someone is off sick they are not on sick leave

correct, to a point, in that sickness should not be seen as a 'leave entitlement'

craigjm said:

they are absent from work

often with good reason and challenging that reason should not be undertaken by none clinicians, as even alledgedly 'trained' HR people often have a tenuous grip on it...

craigjm said:

and not fulfilling their employment contract.

you need to be very careful with bandying terms like this around, especially in the light of equality legislation as well as general employment law.

craigjm said:

Change the language and start talking about sickness absence. Calling it leave makes it appear as a benefit.

occupational sick pay schemes are 'a benefit' - effectively the employer is 'self insuring' rather than having to pay employees to obtain their own income replacement cover ( outside of critical illness / medical retirement stuff which tends to be more tied to the Pension side of thingd. )

craigjm said:

Your company will have a sickness absence policy if the HR department knows what it is doing and this will contain guidance at what to do at what stage. A decent policy will state that you can have so many days (or instances) per year without action but then you will hit "trigger points" in the policy where managers must take action. They will also guide on what pay someone will get.

This is all good practice and what any decent employer should be doing

craigjm said:

If they have been off for six months they you really should be looking at moving to dismiss. Is the stress related to work?

As I said in my previous post i just hope you never have a truely serious but not going to result in death / medical retirement illness or injury ...

reducing occupational sick pay and dismissal do not necessarily go hand in hand.

'especially if it's work related' is the kind of language that may well come back and bite an employer, unless they can demonstrate that they have genuinely acted by the absolute letter of the law here.

Also clinical diagnosis of Depression Anxiety disorders related to work may fall under the Disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act.

PH is very poor in acknowledging that 'work related stress' and associated diagnoses of depression etc are work related injuries and not a sign of weakness ... if only these problems were as easy to resolve as manual handling or PUWER ( or rather lack of training ) related work place injuries.

Edited by mph1977 on Friday 29th March 14:43

[craigjm]

Whoa MPH I wasn't being negative it just gets my goat when people call it leave. In terms of what I said about their employment contact that stands in law, you are contracted to attend work. If you do not attend you are not meeting your contractual obligations. However, an employer needs to be reasonable in how they deal with this and it is that reasonable-ness that employment law considers.

When I said moving to dismiss I didn't mean licking them out the door I meant start the formal process that should be in place if it has not already been done. The welfare of the employee and the employer need to be balanced. With "stress" it can in reality be any number of different illnesses and some would mean they not be able to continue in tat kind of work anyway especially if it was spurred by work. This is why it's important to get an occupational health specialist involved and not just rely on what the GP is saying.

[Countdown]

mph1977 said:

a. The 'powerfully built' and be -goateed Company directors ( an awful lot of whom appear to actually be tradesmen or 'contractors' rather than true Director level appoints - although there are some. ) seem to think that having Occupational sick pay 'encourages' sickness absence and that attendance through a period of illness is somehow 'proof ' of manliness.

I've worked in both private sector (no pay for first 3 days, SSP only after that) and public sector (full pay for 1 month to 6 months, or unlimited full pay if it's classed as a workplace injury). Short term absence is much lower in the private sector. When Norweb was privatised and implemented new Sickness T&Cs Monday absences dropped something like 90%. In my experience the cushier the Sick pay scheme the more people who choose to benefit from it.

mph1977 said:

b. the kind of bullst that abounds over the 'gold plated' public sector T+Cs - despite the fact that NHS sickness absence for clinical staff runs at 4 point something % -

There are some stats and some analysis in the link below. From my experience it's irrelevant whether a person works in the private sector or public sector, it's the benefits provided by OSP which determines the level of sickness absence.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/public_sector_worke...

[myvision]

Also can an employee go straight back to work full time after I had time off (5 months) after an operation I was only allowed to do three days a week for the first two months back. All of this was on full pay. I could have done the full five day week but wasn't allowed H&S department told me it was law I had to be eased back into the working environment.
This is in the private sector as well.

[craigjm]

myvision said:

Also can an employee go straight back to work full time after I had time off (5 months) after an operation I was only allowed to do three days a week for the first two months back. All of this was on full pay. I could have done the full five day week but wasn't allowed H&S department told me it was law I had to be eased back into the working environment.
This is in the private sector as well.

Phased return, pretty much the norm after a major illness regardless of sector.

[Countdown]

craigjm said:

Phased return, pretty much the norm after a major illness regardless of sector.

Not sure if it is tbh. IME it can vary anywhere between

Not allowed
Allowed but you're only paid for the days you work
Allowed with full pay regardless of days worked

It also depends on the reason you were off sick in the first place. A broken leg wouldn't necessarily entail a phased return. Stress/Depression probably would.

[myvision]

Countdown said:

craigjm said:

Phased return, pretty much the norm after a major illness regardless of sector.

Not sure if it is tbh. IME it can vary anywhere between

Not allowed
Allowed but you're only paid for the days you work
Allowed with full pay regardless of days worked

It also depends on the reason you were off sick in the first place. A broken leg wouldn't necessarily entail a phased return. Stress/Depression probably would.

Was actually a badly broken leg that got me a phased return and five months off work. I felt the phased return wasn't necessary but work insisted upon it.

[Jasandjules]

V8 Animal said:

How long can a employee legaly take sick leave?
I have a member off sick with stress for 6 months and a sick note for 2 more months. I have to keep this position open just in case the employee turns up whenever that may be. I have a letter from the employees doctor confirming stress. The Doctor says this could continue for a year. Where does this leave me legally?

You have an employee with a potential disability.

[Countdown]

myvision said:

Was actually a badly broken leg that got me a phased return and five months off work. I felt the phased return wasn't necessary but work insisted upon it.

I suppose 5 months is a bit longer than the usual amount for a broken leg. It also depends on the type of work you do (I guess).

[mph1977]

Countdown said:

mph1977 said:

a. The 'powerfully built' and be -goateed Company directors ( an awful lot of whom appear to actually be tradesmen or 'contractors' rather than true Director level appoints - although there are some. ) seem to think that having Occupational sick pay 'encourages' sickness absence and that attendance through a period of illness is somehow 'proof ' of manliness.

I've worked in both private sector (no pay for first 3 days, SSP only after that) and public sector (full pay for 1 month to 6 months, or unlimited full pay if it's classed as a workplace injury). Short term absence is much lower in the private sector. When Norweb was privatised and implemented new Sickness T&Cs Monday absences dropped something like 90%. In my experience the cushier the Sick pay scheme the more people who choose to benefit from it.

Thats an attendance management issue rather than a sick pay one - someone who regularly takes short absences around weekends or prior to or immediately after booked periods of leave is probably a piss taker unless they have a long term condition ( and have sporadic absence all across the calender as well )

This is where systems that account for both episodes and duration of absences as a trigger for review ... as piss takers tend to have lots of short absences without a ongoing diagnosis - the so called 'duvet day' whether that's down to can't be arsed or the morning after the night before - you have to be careful to not discriminate against someone with a long term condition like Asthma, IBS or epilepsy here where sporadic short absences coincidining with acute episodes can be a common pattern

Countdown said:

mph1977 said:

b. the kind of bullst that abounds over the 'gold plated' public sector T+Cs - despite the fact that NHS sickness absence for clinical staff runs at 4 point something % -

There are some stats and some analysis in the link below. From my experience it's irrelevant whether a person works in the private sector or public sector, it's the benefits provided by OSP which determines the level of sickness absence.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/public_sector_worke...

There is also the issue of enforced 48 or 72 hour absences in food handling and healthcare following any episode of D and/or V - which could pose a real problem should you adopt a policy of no pay for the first x days ... do you really want healthcare staff with patient contact- especially the lower paid grades bringing their tummy bugs in for fear of losing pay and infecting patients ...

also in a shift based setting there is less opportunity to make up time - in an office based setting you can make up those hours later in the week - where a 'lost' shift is reported as a lost shift. - while you can argue this shouldn't matter between private and public sector - how many professionals and middle managers in the private sector work shifts in the same way that NHS clinicians, Social workers ( to cover the EDT and AMHP rota), Police officers and supervisory grades of firefighter ( crew , watch and area managers SubO, StnO and Stn Commander in old money ) do ...

[craigjm]

Countdown said:

Not sure if it is tbh. IME it can vary anywhere between

Not allowed
Allowed but you're only paid for the days you work
Allowed with full pay regardless of days worked

It also depends on the reason you were off sick in the first place. A broken leg wouldn't necessarily entail a phased return. Stress/Depression probably would.

exactly which is why I said major illness. Broken leg is not a major illness.

[Gwagon111]

Stress / bad back / neck / whatever, is the one reason for long term sign offs that is very difficult to deal with, from an employers point of view. I tend to find that if an employee starts getting signed off for any of the above, they have tended to be absolute pains in the arse, who know their rights, but are clueless about their responsibilities. Personally, I wait until the order / sales / work cycle reaches a nadir, then I put their role at the top of the matrix for 'risk of redundancy'.

[Countdown]

mph1977 said:

There is also the issue of enforced 48 or 72 hour absences in food handling and healthcare following any episode of D and/or V - which could pose a real problem should you adopt a policy of no pay for the first x days ... do you really want healthcare staff with patient contact- especially the lower paid grades bringing their tummy bugs in for fear of losing pay and infecting patients ...

There are private sector employees involved in food handling and healthcare who don't have the same entitlements to OSP. I'm not sure if the data is available but it would be interesting to compare infection rates.

mph1977 said:

also in a shift based setting there is less opportunity to make up time - in an office based setting you can make up those hours later in the week - where a 'lost' shift is reported as a lost shift. - while you can argue this shouldn't matter between private and public sector - how many professionals and middle managers in the private sector work shifts in the same way that NHS clinicians, Social workers ( to cover the EDT and AMHP rota), Police officers and supervisory grades of firefighter ( crew , watch and area managers SubO, StnO and Stn Commander in old money ) do ...

The opportunity to make up lost time is limited unless you work on "piece rate" or in a factory and can do double shifts.

The examples I gave (where sickness dropped from 9 days per annum to 3 days per annum) was for people doing EXACTLY the same work in the same place at the same time. It appears that not being paid for not working is an extremely efficient system of absence management

[Countdown]

Gwagon111 said:

Stress / bad back / neck / whatever, is the one reason for long term sign offs that is very difficult to deal with, from an employers point of view. I tend to find that if an employee starts getting signed off for any of the above, they have tended to be absolute pains in the arse, who know their rights, but are clueless about their responsibilities. Personally, I wait until the order / sales / work cycle reaches a nadir, then I put their role at the top of the matrix for 'risk of redundancy'.

Tell me about it - apparently a bad back is classified as a disability so some organisations don't treat it in the same way as normal sickness absence.

The person I'm thinking about - maybe if they didn'yt weigh 23 stone they wouldn't have a bad back.

[Countdown]

craigjm said:

Countdown said:

Not sure if it is tbh. IME it can vary anywhere between

Not allowed
Allowed but you're only paid for the days you work
Allowed with full pay regardless of days worked

It also depends on the reason you were off sick in the first place. A broken leg wouldn't necessarily entail a phased return. Stress/Depression probably would.

exactly which is why I said major illness. Broken leg is not a major illness.

Regardless of how major the illness was, there is no automatic entitlement to a phased return. It very much depends on your Employers policy. A phased return on full pay is (IME) the exception rather than the norm.

[craigjm]

Countdown said:

Regardless of how major the illness was, there is no automatic entitlement to a phased return. It very much depends on your Employers policy. A phased return on full pay is (IME) the exception rather than the norm.

I agree. Full pay phased returns are rare. I would only pay them for when they attend