Advice for SWMBO
Discussion
Welcome any thoughts and views on this situation my wife is in. I will try and keep it short and only list the important things.
Wife is a care home manager, starts work at a smallish home in Sept 2008, home is owned by a guy, early 60s, he works 4 hrs a day, all week.
Over the next 4 yrs she loves it, he loves her, he cuts down he work too 2 days a week as she is so good, she hits her bonus every 3 months, loves the job and residents, life is good.
Sept last yr the owner starts seeing one of the Russian carers, from day 1 she starts giving my misses aggro, late into work, not even turning up, taking extra holiday, the list is endless, when my wife dares question it she is told "Im going out with **** so I dont have to listen to you", goes on like this for 3 months until my wife speaks with the boss, told he will have a word and it will stop, well it didnt, but my wife learnt to put up with it, but things were tense.
Jump forward to start of August, we go on holiday for 2 weeks, on the sunday before she is due back in, she gets an email from boss, saying please do not come in at your normal time, but come in at 1.45 for a meeting, and not to contact any of the staff before the meeting, my wife emails back asking is it a disciplinary matter, if so she would like to bring someone with her into meeting, told no, it wasnt, and just to arrive at 1.45pm. Wife just presumed something had happened while she was away and he was being ultra careful.
So, she arrives at 1.45 pm, as asked, and is promptly dismissed, well, I say dismissed, he comes out with lots of stuff about how great she is and he will miss her but due to the "issues" with his girlfriend he feels they can no longer work together, he suggests she hands in her notice, in fact he has already written a copy of her resignation letter for her (wtf!!!!). He offers her 3 months money, but she loses the 1 month holiday she is owed, so in theory only 2 months money, he offers her this money if she signs a "no compromise" agreement, saying she wont take him to tribunal and it will be the end of the matter.
She is asked to leave there and then and not contact the staff or residents for 2 months from that date. She was given a copy of the no compromise agreement, and asked to go back tomorrow to sign it, do her exit interview and get her final pay cheque.
Now the wife, although upset she cant say goodbye to the residents and staff isn't really too bothered about this, she did consider leaving late last year when it became clear the girlfriend was going to be problems, his false promises made her stay, though he didn't know she was looking elsewhere.She has already lined up a couple of interviews and is confident of finding work. She says if she did take him to tribunal it could look bad on her record/CV.
Me, on the other hand thinks she has been treated very unfairly, she worked her heart out for this bloke, extra unpaid hrs, before she started the home bed rate was 74%, the last 2 yrs its been 98%, so pretty much full all the time.
So, am I getting angry about nothing, or should I be buying some sausages and a hammer, any views and thoughts welcome, and yes i know my spelling and grammar isn't up to much, that's private school for you.
Wife is a care home manager, starts work at a smallish home in Sept 2008, home is owned by a guy, early 60s, he works 4 hrs a day, all week.
Over the next 4 yrs she loves it, he loves her, he cuts down he work too 2 days a week as she is so good, she hits her bonus every 3 months, loves the job and residents, life is good.
Sept last yr the owner starts seeing one of the Russian carers, from day 1 she starts giving my misses aggro, late into work, not even turning up, taking extra holiday, the list is endless, when my wife dares question it she is told "Im going out with **** so I dont have to listen to you", goes on like this for 3 months until my wife speaks with the boss, told he will have a word and it will stop, well it didnt, but my wife learnt to put up with it, but things were tense.
Jump forward to start of August, we go on holiday for 2 weeks, on the sunday before she is due back in, she gets an email from boss, saying please do not come in at your normal time, but come in at 1.45 for a meeting, and not to contact any of the staff before the meeting, my wife emails back asking is it a disciplinary matter, if so she would like to bring someone with her into meeting, told no, it wasnt, and just to arrive at 1.45pm. Wife just presumed something had happened while she was away and he was being ultra careful.
So, she arrives at 1.45 pm, as asked, and is promptly dismissed, well, I say dismissed, he comes out with lots of stuff about how great she is and he will miss her but due to the "issues" with his girlfriend he feels they can no longer work together, he suggests she hands in her notice, in fact he has already written a copy of her resignation letter for her (wtf!!!!). He offers her 3 months money, but she loses the 1 month holiday she is owed, so in theory only 2 months money, he offers her this money if she signs a "no compromise" agreement, saying she wont take him to tribunal and it will be the end of the matter.
She is asked to leave there and then and not contact the staff or residents for 2 months from that date. She was given a copy of the no compromise agreement, and asked to go back tomorrow to sign it, do her exit interview and get her final pay cheque.
Now the wife, although upset she cant say goodbye to the residents and staff isn't really too bothered about this, she did consider leaving late last year when it became clear the girlfriend was going to be problems, his false promises made her stay, though he didn't know she was looking elsewhere.She has already lined up a couple of interviews and is confident of finding work. She says if she did take him to tribunal it could look bad on her record/CV.
Me, on the other hand thinks she has been treated very unfairly, she worked her heart out for this bloke, extra unpaid hrs, before she started the home bed rate was 74%, the last 2 yrs its been 98%, so pretty much full all the time.
So, am I getting angry about nothing, or should I be buying some sausages and a hammer, any views and thoughts welcome, and yes i know my spelling and grammar isn't up to much, that's private school for you.
I'd say you have every right to be angry.
If she has conformed to the requirements of her contract, then there are no viable grounds for dismissal. That does not mean to say that the business owner does not have the right to get rid, but he is legally obliged to pay her what is owed according to the terms of her contract and current UK employment law - on which, I hasten to add, I am not an expert.
If she has conformed to the requirements of her contract, then there are no viable grounds for dismissal. That does not mean to say that the business owner does not have the right to get rid, but he is legally obliged to pay her what is owed according to the terms of her contract and current UK employment law - on which, I hasten to add, I am not an expert.
Well it is obvious she can't go back working there and if she has other opportunities then she is better off taking one those, so that's one thing out of the way.
Personally I'd take it legal, but I'm not an expert nor do I know the full circumstances. If it is pretty much as stated, then it is massively out of order and must be some kind of breach of employment law (but again, no expert). I suppose it depends on whether your OH feels she is owed more for what she has done or is she happy to take 2 months wages and walk straight into a new job?
What is the likelyhood of any action against her former employer getting around? Do these kind of places tend to talk or is it an insular type of business?
BreadVan tends to be the resident expert on these matters. Drop him a PM or hunt him down in another thread.
Personally I'd take it legal, but I'm not an expert nor do I know the full circumstances. If it is pretty much as stated, then it is massively out of order and must be some kind of breach of employment law (but again, no expert). I suppose it depends on whether your OH feels she is owed more for what she has done or is she happy to take 2 months wages and walk straight into a new job?
What is the likelyhood of any action against her former employer getting around? Do these kind of places tend to talk or is it an insular type of business?
BreadVan tends to be the resident expert on these matters. Drop him a PM or hunt him down in another thread.
I believe for a compromise agreement to be legally binding SWMBO is required to take legal advice (normally paid for by the employer) otherwise it could be construed that she was pressured into signing it - which is what it sounds like.
Personally, I would think they want rid so ask for more money and a reference, unless the contract specifies higher amounts of compensation.
He wants rid so get as much as you can as easily as you can and move on would be my advice.
Personally, I would think they want rid so ask for more money and a reference, unless the contract specifies higher amounts of compensation.
He wants rid so get as much as you can as easily as you can and move on would be my advice.
In practical terms this is just a pragmatic simple negotiation. Forget all the emotion, how she has done a good job, how the right process has not been followed etc etc. The simple fact is, this is the outcome the business owner wants.
He clearly does not want the aggravation of a tribunal. There is no discrimination involved, at least on the facts presented here, so any payout is limited in that regard. Indeed, dismissal for "some other substantial reason" could include the type of situation you describe. Contractually you should be entitled to any pro-rata holiday unused plus the period of notice required to be served. Pick a multiple of that number you think he will begin negotiating down from and start negotiating. To expedite matters I would complete and perhaps show him the ET1 form anyway. If you have the front, lay out your financial expectation and explain that you would rather not submit the ET1. If it is right during the negotiation to use this as leverage then do so. You can even submit it anyway to force his hand as he will start incurring additional cost when he will have to formally submit an ET3 response.
He clearly does not want the aggravation of a tribunal. There is no discrimination involved, at least on the facts presented here, so any payout is limited in that regard. Indeed, dismissal for "some other substantial reason" could include the type of situation you describe. Contractually you should be entitled to any pro-rata holiday unused plus the period of notice required to be served. Pick a multiple of that number you think he will begin negotiating down from and start negotiating. To expedite matters I would complete and perhaps show him the ET1 form anyway. If you have the front, lay out your financial expectation and explain that you would rather not submit the ET1. If it is right during the negotiation to use this as leverage then do so. You can even submit it anyway to force his hand as he will start incurring additional cost when he will have to formally submit an ET3 response.
For a compromise agreement to be binding your wife must take legal advice, and its normal practice for the employer to pay for this. Its often limited to say £500 worth of advice though, and make sure when the agreement is done it specifically mentions that the legal advice is paid for (theres a thread here where someone was chased by the solictor for payment as company never paid the bill.
As her case sounds strong i'd push for more payment, maybe try for 6 months and settle for 4.5 months. Id expect all accrued holidays to be paid though, as should any benefits during the notice period.
Good luck
As her case sounds strong i'd push for more payment, maybe try for 6 months and settle for 4.5 months. Id expect all accrued holidays to be paid though, as should any benefits during the notice period.
Good luck
Many thanks for the pointers folks, glad a few agree with me, thought I was going mad.
The wife is due in to work tomorrow to sign the no compromise agreement , my wife is very quiet/timid and I just feel he has bullied her into this, but I guess, as a good husband I can only support her decision and help her move along.
Doesn't stop me looking a frozen sausages mind,
The wife is due in to work tomorrow to sign the no compromise agreement , my wife is very quiet/timid and I just feel he has bullied her into this, but I guess, as a good husband I can only support her decision and help her move along.
Doesn't stop me looking a frozen sausages mind,
Quattromaster - goes without saying I think - get legal advice ASAP.
See what the solicitor/lawyer/barrister has to say about it all - you may then be in a position where SWMBO can make a far more informed decision.
As an aside - its clear the guy knows hes in the wrong - hence this agreement he wants SWMBO to sign saying she won't go to tribunal - says it all really for me.
Tell the good lady to keep the head up high - if shes successfully run a nursing home for the last 5 years - or more if she did it previously for a previous employer - then she will no doubt have lots of skills and ability that would suit another nursing home manager job superbly - or are imo very readily transferable to other roles in the management line in another industry.
Running a good high standard nursing home is a tough gig - imo.
Best of luck to her for the future - its a pain in the backside - but once shes settled into a new role again she can drive on forward and upwards again
.
See what the solicitor/lawyer/barrister has to say about it all - you may then be in a position where SWMBO can make a far more informed decision.
As an aside - its clear the guy knows hes in the wrong - hence this agreement he wants SWMBO to sign saying she won't go to tribunal - says it all really for me.
Tell the good lady to keep the head up high - if shes successfully run a nursing home for the last 5 years - or more if she did it previously for a previous employer - then she will no doubt have lots of skills and ability that would suit another nursing home manager job superbly - or are imo very readily transferable to other roles in the management line in another industry.
Running a good high standard nursing home is a tough gig - imo.
Best of luck to her for the future - its a pain in the backside - but once shes settled into a new role again she can drive on forward and upwards again
.BTW, it's a 'Compromise Agreement', not a 'No Compromise' agreement.
IANAL, but I am absolutely sure that your wife has the right to take legal advice before she signs the agreement, and that the cost of this would be expected to be borne by the employer. A reasonable expectation of the money expected would be one month's salary per year of service, plus all outstanding holiday and bonus pay, plus a consideration for accepting the compromise agreement, plus a clear statement as to her rights under the pension scheme, if present.
When I read my compromise agreement I thought it looked fine, but the solicitor I consulted required a few changes before he would let me sign. If your wife's employer wants her off the premises before this process is completed (it can take a few weeks, i am sure he could put your wife on 'gardening leave'.
IANAL, but I am absolutely sure that your wife has the right to take legal advice before she signs the agreement, and that the cost of this would be expected to be borne by the employer. A reasonable expectation of the money expected would be one month's salary per year of service, plus all outstanding holiday and bonus pay, plus a consideration for accepting the compromise agreement, plus a clear statement as to her rights under the pension scheme, if present.
When I read my compromise agreement I thought it looked fine, but the solicitor I consulted required a few changes before he would let me sign. If your wife's employer wants her off the premises before this process is completed (it can take a few weeks, i am sure he could put your wife on 'gardening leave'.
Quattromaster said:
Many thanks for the pointers folks, glad a few agree with me, thought I was going mad.
The wife is due in to work tomorrow to sign the no compromise agreement , my wife is very quiet/timid and I just feel he has bullied her into this, but I guess, as a good husband I can only support her decision and help her move along.
Doesn't stop me looking a frozen sausages mind,
Don't sign anything!The wife is due in to work tomorrow to sign the no compromise agreement , my wife is very quiet/timid and I just feel he has bullied her into this, but I guess, as a good husband I can only support her decision and help her move along.
Doesn't stop me looking a frozen sausages mind,
Get some legal advice, this guy has done everything wrong, you are totally within your rights to take him to a tribunal.
Sorry guys for the late update, busy busy busy of late, but I do know how annoying it is to see an unfinished thread.
So, I took the wife in for her "exit interview" on the day and time agreed, she had the compromise agreement looked over by a solicitor before, and although he said she did have grounds to take it further she decided not too, as I said earlier on in thread, my wife is a quiet shy lady who does not want any aggro, just to lead her life, doing the job she loved.
Anyway, she took the 3 months money, it hasn't arrived yet, seems he doesn't have to pay it until he has paid the solicitors invoice, he refused to speak to my wife during all of this.
Anyway, then the big shock, turns out, as well as seeing the "russian cleaner" he is also knocking off the cook/activities lady.
Who has now become manager despite never working in care in her life, bear in mind my wife worked up from "wiping bums" when she left school at 16, to where she is now at almost 40 yrs old.
This lady has gone from 12k a yr with only level 3 in care, onto 38k a yr, seems you don't need level 5 to be a manager, you only need to be doing the course, and finish it within 36 months.
Now is that BONKERS , I didn't believe my wife until she showed me on the CQC website, what a bloody joke.
Anyway, onward and upward, thanks for your pointers folk, me, i'm happy to have the wife at home and looking well, she worked far to hard and the break will do her good, saying that she is exploring many options, from staying a manager, setting up a care staff agency, becoming a trainer, or we have looked at buying a home, she will then answer to no one.
PS--Anybody think I'm childish for, while in doctors today, picking up a leaflet on "Cervical screening". I'd love to send it to the ownner and new manager, with a note saying "Here you go, thought you might need this as your a right pair of c***s".
I know i know, just made me smile.
So, I took the wife in for her "exit interview" on the day and time agreed, she had the compromise agreement looked over by a solicitor before, and although he said she did have grounds to take it further she decided not too, as I said earlier on in thread, my wife is a quiet shy lady who does not want any aggro, just to lead her life, doing the job she loved.
Anyway, she took the 3 months money, it hasn't arrived yet, seems he doesn't have to pay it until he has paid the solicitors invoice, he refused to speak to my wife during all of this.
Anyway, then the big shock, turns out, as well as seeing the "russian cleaner" he is also knocking off the cook/activities lady.
Who has now become manager despite never working in care in her life, bear in mind my wife worked up from "wiping bums" when she left school at 16, to where she is now at almost 40 yrs old.
This lady has gone from 12k a yr with only level 3 in care, onto 38k a yr, seems you don't need level 5 to be a manager, you only need to be doing the course, and finish it within 36 months.
Now is that BONKERS , I didn't believe my wife until she showed me on the CQC website, what a bloody joke.
Anyway, onward and upward, thanks for your pointers folk, me, i'm happy to have the wife at home and looking well, she worked far to hard and the break will do her good, saying that she is exploring many options, from staying a manager, setting up a care staff agency, becoming a trainer, or we have looked at buying a home, she will then answer to no one.
PS--Anybody think I'm childish for, while in doctors today, picking up a leaflet on "Cervical screening". I'd love to send it to the ownner and new manager, with a note saying "Here you go, thought you might need this as your a right pair of c***s".
I know i know, just made me smile.
Pass on my regards to your good wife Quattromaster.
Hope she does great in whatever she decides to do for the future.
Its good to look at the different options - only thing I would say is that from an outsiders viewpoint - actually buying a nursing home sounds like a massive undertaking financially - and trying to make it work could be tricky.
Thing to note is that when people choose to sell something like a nursing home, farm, business etc - they frequently have being thinking about it for ages - so you may end up having to invest in the nursing home that's been purchased - on top of the purchase price.
Going with the trainer option could be worth looking into I think - if theres vacancies in that line of work.
Also - bear in mind that shes already been a manager - and thus has management experience - so of course could manage another home - but remember - she could transfer her existing management skills/experience into a management role outside the care/nursing home industry.
She could also consider (I think) the idea of going back to gain management qualifications etc if she doesn't have them - and if she considers that might help her land a management role elsewhere.
Best of luck anyway
Hope she does great in whatever she decides to do for the future.
Its good to look at the different options - only thing I would say is that from an outsiders viewpoint - actually buying a nursing home sounds like a massive undertaking financially - and trying to make it work could be tricky.
Thing to note is that when people choose to sell something like a nursing home, farm, business etc - they frequently have being thinking about it for ages - so you may end up having to invest in the nursing home that's been purchased - on top of the purchase price.
Going with the trainer option could be worth looking into I think - if theres vacancies in that line of work.
Also - bear in mind that shes already been a manager - and thus has management experience - so of course could manage another home - but remember - she could transfer her existing management skills/experience into a management role outside the care/nursing home industry.
She could also consider (I think) the idea of going back to gain management qualifications etc if she doesn't have them - and if she considers that might help her land a management role elsewhere.
Best of luck anyway
In light of the further info that has come out regarding the owner, your wife has definitely done the right thing.
If this guy is promoting people purely based on their bedroom skills, rather than their qualifications and ability then your wife has got out at the right time. Quality of care and reputation will no doubt start to tail off.
This guy is unlikely to have a business left in the next 12-18 months and your wife wouldn't have got any money at all if she was still there.
Good outcome OP.
If this guy is promoting people purely based on their bedroom skills, rather than their qualifications and ability then your wife has got out at the right time. Quality of care and reputation will no doubt start to tail off.
This guy is unlikely to have a business left in the next 12-18 months and your wife wouldn't have got any money at all if she was still there.
Good outcome OP.
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