Mature entry to Merchant Navy

[thebigm]

Hello,

I just wondered if any current serving members of former members of the merchant navy could give me some advice.
I am 40 years old and I am interested in training to be a deck officer. I understand that the usual training route is to take an HND in Nautical Science at a nautical college and to be sponsored by a shipping company to do this.
I am not really in position to move away and attend a full time course as I have a wife and child to support.

So my questions are:

1- Would any shipping company touch me with a barge pole considering my age?
2- Are there are any other alternatives to attending a full-time HND nautical science course (i.e. distance learning, part-time attendance, etc.)
3- Are there any companies that will train you "in-house" rather than attending a college?

Thanks for any advice

[mr_spock]

I have a nephew who's done this, and although I don't know much about it myself, he's away from home for months at a time, all year round. In between, he's at college. If you can't go away and attend training, how are you going to actually do the job?

[thebigm]

I didn't put it very well. I can go away for work/training, and I know you have to do some on-board training to gain your qualification, but I need to be able to work/earn money while training. So are there any part-time options?

[16plates]

thebigm said:

Hello,

I just wondered if any current serving members of former members of the merchant navy could give me some advice.
I am 40 years old and I am interested in training to be a deck officer. I understand that the usual training route is to take an HND in Nautical Science at a nautical college and to be sponsored by a shipping company to do this.
I am not really in position to move away and attend a full time course as I have a wife and child to support.

So my questions are:

1- Would any shipping company touch me with a barge pole considering my age?
2- Are there are any other alternatives to attending a full-time HND nautical science course (i.e. distance learning, part-time attendance, etc.)
3- Are there any companies that will train you "in-house" rather than attending a college?

Thanks for any advice

I'm an engineering officer in the MN.


1- Would any shipping company touch me with a barge pole considering my age? Age is NOT a barrier at all. Certainly not at 40 - when i trained there were two 40 year olds in my class at college, one 33 and a few 30 year olds. These guys all done really well as for them it was real life, they kept their head down and got good grades. Where as some of the 18 year old, first time away from home boys were all about getting pissed and shagging 6 nights a week and struggled through the course!

With regards to the rest.. this is where you need to really sit down and think about it... There is no way to fast track yourself into a deck officer position, you must do the 3 year cadetship first. Bear in mind this course is full time and you WILL be paid during college.. somewhere between £700 and £1400 a month after tax depending on company... not much but its more than most training roles.

I should point out that the course isn't a solid 3 years... you will attend college at your companies chosen maritime training centre - Glasgow, Newcastle(south shields) or Southampton(warsash) or possibly Blackpool(Fleetwood) however not sure how many companies use Fleetwood just now. Within this 3 years you will have 3 college phases and 3 sea phases where you learn 'on the job'. When at college you can travel home every weekend, sometimes for 3 days depending on timetables - maybe a Monday or Friday off.

It's not like the RN where you must be 'on site' outside of college hours, you can do what you want as-long as you attend lectures between 9-4.

Also bear in mind that if you can't be away just now.. can you be away in the future? Some contracts will be nudging on 4 months away from home - does that suit you?

Shipping companies i'd recommend to do training with are; Carnival UK, SSTG, Trinity House and Maersk. Avoid Clyde Marine if possible... from what i seen they are very unorganised, pay the least and have the worst offering of ships to complete your sea time on - evergreen tankers, fully russian crewed dredgers in korea etc... fk that.


Feel free to ask me anything and i'll try advise as best i can. I've not been qualified long really so don't expect much has changed since i done my cadetship!

Hope some of that helps.

[sunoco69]

Once you finish the 3 year cadet bit whats the pay like?

This has got me curious!

[16plates]

sunoco69 said:

Once you finish the 3 year cadet bit whats the pay like?

This has got me curious!

Massively varies between companies and roles and ranks and experience and locations...

Straight out of college you won't earn less than £30k, this is tax free assuming you pick a company which ensures you will be out of UK for 183 days a year. Equates to circa £45k taxed wage at home.

Oil and gas industry tend to pay the most but the work is tough. Then private yachts but that isn't for everyone. Tankers and general cargo are good money but poor lifestyle, small crew, long tie at sea between ports. Cruise ships are the places to be for lifestyle, drink, women, sun, great travel opportunities however pay is generally slightly less until you progress the ranks.

[sunoco69]

Wow that doesn't sound a bad career choice. What's the entry requirements? Might suggest my kids look at this.

[16plates]

sunoco69 said:

Wow that doesn't sound a bad career choice. What's the entry requirements? Might suggest my kids look at this.

Depending on the level (HNC/HND/Degree) you want to study at, the entry requirements are different, must haves are good GCSE's/Scottish Standard Grades in maths and sciences. Bonuses are A-Levels/Scottish Highers, again in maths and sciences. Even better if going the engineering route, would be a degree in mechanical or electrical engineering, this allows you to cut out alot of the college time and complete the cadetship in 18months.


I'd recommend it to anyone, even family men - people say "oh but your away for half the year"... forgetting that you can have a solid 6 months at home when on leave. Day in day out, all added up you prob get more free time with your kids than if you done a Monday to Friday 9-5 with an hours commute either side.

Plus... you get paid to do an HND/Degree... whilst other people studying are racking up five figures of debt a year.

Being away for long periods can be hard but it is a rewarding career.

[LimaDelta]

16plates said:

I'd recommend it to anyone, even family men - people say "oh but your away for half the year"... forgetting that you can have a solid 6 months at home when on leave. Day in day out, all added up you prob get more free time with your kids than if you done a Monday to Friday 9-5 with an hours commute either side.

Very much this. I have a 2yo, with another baby on the way. My friends at home who work 9-5 are out the house before the kids wake, and back long after bath/bedtime. Then you have to share weekends with all the millions of other parents who only have two days a week to fit everything in.

I've been at sea 13 years or so now, and have a pretty comfortable life, work 10 weeks on 10 weeks off on a private yacht (ex-commercial/cruise ships). Engineering not deck but the entry, progression (and salary) is essentially the same. No regrets so far and having all that time in one go to spend as a family is great. Plus the time away is a lot easier nowadays with Skype/Facetime etc.

Earning potential is good, particularly as said above in O&G or yachts. Factor in the time off and the tax-break and you would have to be on a serious wage shoreside to have a similar standard of living.

I did my cadetship a while back but we had some 30-somethings and one or two older still. Certainly no problem there.

Give it a go, but bear in mind it is a difficult job and manning levels are dangerously low on most vessels. Lots of paperwork and arse-covering by shipping companies can put you in some very awkward positions sometimes. Beats sitting behind a desk all day though!

[hidetheelephants]

16plates said:

sunoco69 said:

Once you finish the 3 year cadet bit whats the pay like?

This has got me curious!

Massively varies between companies and roles and ranks and experience and locations...

Straight out of college you won't earn less than £30k, this is tax free assuming you pick a company which ensures you will be out of UK for 183 days a year. Equates to circa £45k taxed wage at home.

Oil and gas industry tend to pay the most but the work is tough. Then private yachts but that isn't for everyone. Tankers and general cargo are good money but poor lifestyle, small crew, long tie at sea between ports. Cruise ships are the places to be for lifestyle, drink, women, sun, great travel opportunities however pay is generally slightly less until you progress the ranks.

Bit optimistic there; the starting rate in cruise liners is ~£22k and ~£25k in the offshore sector. It's only the more specialist niches like tankers or the RFA that get starting rates like that. For the OP; there are 3 ways you can do this,

1. the route you've already looked at; 3 years at college with block release for sea training phases, with money as described above.
2. If you have a relevant vocational degree(science or engineering based) you can do a 18-24 month conversion course to become a marine engineer. The money is the same; IIRC only Clyde Marine are offering this at the moment.
3. Go to sea as a deckhand, get seatime and pass the various exams via attending college or doing correspondence courses; this takes a long time, optimistically you might do it in 5 years, but you do get a reasonable wage while being a deckie(a north sea deckie might get between £18-25k depending on quals and experience).

Check out careers at sea for more details.

Age is no limit; a couple of years ago one of the college puff-pieces in the Nautilus Telegraph had a 45 yr old being given a 'best cadet' award for something.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 11th October 19:23

[16plates]

hidetheelephants said:

Bit optimistic there; the starting rate in cruise liners is ~£22k and ~£25k in the offshore sector. It's only the more specialist niches like tankers or the RFA that get starting rates like that.

As a first trip 3rd ETO on a cruise ship i started on significantly more than the upper figure you suggest. Maybe deckies get a bit less but it will be negligible if so.

[hidetheelephants]

That's because ETOs are in demand; deckies are much easier to recruit.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 11th October 20:12

[16plates]

hidetheelephants said:

That's because ETOs are in demand; deckies are much easier to recruit.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 11th October 20:12

True that. During my cadetship i done some watchkeeping on the bridge... suicidal doesn't come close to how i felt. Absolutely braindead sitting at sea on the 4-8 for 3 weeks. I ticked the right box when i applied for a career at sea, do not envy a deckie on this planet!

[hidetheelephants]

16plates said:

hidetheelephants said:

That's because ETOs are in demand; deckies are much easier to recruit.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 11th October 20:12

True that. During my cadetship i done some watchkeeping on the bridge... suicidal doesn't come close to how i felt. Absolutely braindead sitting at sea on the 4-8 for 3 weeks. I ticked the right box when i applied for a career at sea, do not envy a deckie on this planet!

For the benefit of the OP, ETOs and the more traditional electricians have much better starting salary(I have read of a sparks starting on £40k, but that's exceptional), but your career options are a little limited unless you double-up as a marine engineer as well. I confess I completely forgot about ETO/sparks as a route when writing my post; the training paths are the same though, 3 years of a cadetship or possibly 18 months conversion with a suitable degree.

[sunoco69]

So basically my ankle biters need really good A levels or a degree? Shame they aint that academic. Good, hard workers though. Girl is 18 and training as a chief, already suggested cruise ship route.

Boy is 14 but already good on the spanners and doing mechanics at school.

[hidetheelephants]

sunoco69 said:

So basically my ankle biters need really good A levels or a degree? Shame they aint that academic. Good, hard workers though. Girl is 18 and training as a chief, already suggested cruise ship route.

Boy is 14 but already good on the spanners and doing mechanics at school.

No, good GCSE/S grade results suffice for the HND course; you only need A levels/Highers for the degree courses; the link I provided makes it clear what the requirements are.

[LimaDelta]

sunoco69 said:

So basically my ankle biters need really good A levels or a degree? Shame they aint that academic. Good, hard workers though. Girl is 18 and training as a chief, already suggested cruise ship route.

Boy is 14 but already good on the spanners and doing mechanics at school.

I presume you meant Chef? Anyone who wants to cook will find cruise ships frustrating. Corporate catering with no room for innovation or individuality. Yachts a much better option there. No degree required as HTE said above, I binned a Civil Engineering degree course to start my cadetship.

[mickrick]

This is very interesting!
Do you think they´d be interested in a 52 year old!?
Been in the yachting industry for nearly 20 years, have proven longevity, and great references (11 years in my last job, and 6 years on my previous vessel, albeit with a short break)
I´ve just had my last boat sold from under me, and I´m not even getting interviews at the moment, as no one wants a 52 year old Guy on board.
It´s starting to get me down a bit, as I know I can run rings around some of the younger Guys, but they have tickets and I don´t.
I can´t get tickets because I haven´t got a lot of sea time on my last vessel. I did the engineering, but only deliveries half a dozen times a year for the owner.
I have loads of world wide experience and discharge papers from my old boat, but the MCA won´t accept them because they are over 5 years old.
I have a letter of assessment from the MCA saying I can sit the exams up to Y3, but not until I have the sea time. Catch 22...
I have City & Guilds I & II mechanical engineering craft studies. Would that get me in as an engineering cadet if my age isn´t a concern?

I don´t feel old, and I certainly don´t act my age

[16plates]

mickrick said:

This is very interesting!
Do you think they´d be interested in a 52 year old!?
Been in the yachting industry for nearly 20 years, have proven longevity, and great references (11 years in my last job, and 6 years on my previous vessel, albeit with a short break)
I´ve just had my last boat sold from under me, and I´m not even getting interviews at the moment, as no one wants a 52 year old Guy on board.
It´s starting to get me down a bit, as I know I can run rings around some of the younger Guys, but they have tickets and I don´t.
I can´t get tickets because I haven´t got a lot of sea time on my last vessel. I did the engineering, but only deliveries half a dozen times a year for the owner.
I have loads of world wide experience and discharge papers from my old boat, but the MCA won´t accept them because they are over 5 years old.
I have a letter of assessment from the MCA saying I can sit the exams up to Y3, but not until I have the sea time. Catch 22...
I have City & Guilds I & II mechanical engineering craft studies. Would that get me in as an engineering cadet if my age isn´t a concern?

I don´t feel old, and I certainly don´t act my age

No problems completing the cadetship at 52... but bear in mind when you qualify you would be 55, most companies will assume you to retire in a few years so might opt for the younger guy for this reason.

I know a couple of guys who are motormen on the P&O RORO's, they haven't got tickets, money is obviously less however as far as i know its 2 weeks on 2 weeks off which is nice. Maybe something to look into too.

[hidetheelephants]

The north sea sector is full of old gits; If it wasn't for me and the AMA the average age of our crew would be about 60. You probably have the relevant seatime to follow the third path I described; the MCA don't like this path as it's old fashioned and doesn't fit the modern cookie-cutter nature of qualifications, but keep pestering them until they give you satisfaction. Some UKCS companies employ motormen, but it's getting more unusual. I hesitate to suggest dishonesty, but forgery of seatime certificates and doctoring of discharge book entries is alarmingly common.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Saturday 12th October 14:00