work related legal stuff ??
Discussion
Hi everybody, just looking for a bit of advise to help a close friend of mine.
Said Friend is currently off work due to "stress at work".....to cut a very long story short, she works for a large multinational company, and recently put in a letter of grievance about a male employee ( on the say-so of her line Manager )...anyway, as said,short..she is now off work, and receiving letters from the Head Office asking if she will accept a severance pay of £9k + 3 months wage, then sign lots of paperwork to keep quiet.
Just asking really if this is lawful seeing as she is already off work as mentioned earlier, and if so, is the sum of money offered fair, given she has worked for this company for over 20 years ?
Said Friend is currently off work due to "stress at work".....to cut a very long story short, she works for a large multinational company, and recently put in a letter of grievance about a male employee ( on the say-so of her line Manager )...anyway, as said,short..she is now off work, and receiving letters from the Head Office asking if she will accept a severance pay of £9k + 3 months wage, then sign lots of paperwork to keep quiet.
Just asking really if this is lawful seeing as she is already off work as mentioned earlier, and if so, is the sum of money offered fair, given she has worked for this company for over 20 years ?
I have seen this sort of thing before where long-serving employees are concerned. It's a convenient way of getting rid of people who no longer 'fit the profile'.
Such an agreement would only be valid if she had received independent legal advice. I recommend she:
a) checks her statutory redundancy pay entitlement - http://www.statutory-redundancy.co.uk/2013/02/redu...
b) reads this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_agreement
c) contacts ACAS
Has the full grievance procedure been gone through? If not you have to ask why this offer is being made at this stage. What is the employer scared of? Do they have 'form' for the conduct being complained of?
If she is minded to fold her tent, remember that in any negotiation you never accept the opening offer unless it is exceptionally generous. Depending on her level within the organisation and the type of work she does. the most important thing she needs to factor in is her chances of getting another job. 20 years in one place means she is quite likely to be the wrong side of 40 which often doesn't help in that regard
Such an agreement would only be valid if she had received independent legal advice. I recommend she:
a) checks her statutory redundancy pay entitlement - http://www.statutory-redundancy.co.uk/2013/02/redu...
b) reads this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_agreement
c) contacts ACAS
Has the full grievance procedure been gone through? If not you have to ask why this offer is being made at this stage. What is the employer scared of? Do they have 'form' for the conduct being complained of?
If she is minded to fold her tent, remember that in any negotiation you never accept the opening offer unless it is exceptionally generous. Depending on her level within the organisation and the type of work she does. the most important thing she needs to factor in is her chances of getting another job. 20 years in one place means she is quite likely to be the wrong side of 40 which often doesn't help in that regard
357RS said:
Sounds like said friend is being offered a Compromise Agreement. All perfectly legal. Suggest that said friend compares the level of severance pay to what would be offered on redundancy. Lots of info on this on the interweb.
Just checked, and I think you are right. All letters have written at top "without prejudice" as well. The last letter said if the offer wasn't accepted by 28th Nov, it will be withdrawn.She only received letter on Sat 23rd November, not a lot of time to seek advice !! Her health is also suffering now, and I am a bit worried that her stress levels are increasing 
Can anybody suggest the best place to seek advice quickly, r is it simply best to try C.A.B ?
Yes, CAB is a good option. They can advise what her statutory redundancy entitlement would be, and she can work out a deal from there. There can be some tax advantages if she receives more of the money as redundancy or similar and less as pay in lieu. Good luck. If she has a decent household contents insurance policy check if she has legal expenses cover. If she does that may pay for a solicitor, which will put her in a stronger negotiating position. As stated above, a compromise agreement is only valid if she has had legal advice or negotiated through ACAS. The company should pay for the legal advice - going rate for a contribution from an employer is usually around £3-400 plus vat
7db said:
Get a solicitor. Usually Co will pay for them to review Compromise Agreement.
In the law they have to pay for a lawyer to look at the agreement, up to £250 if memory serves. The compromise agreement sum needs to be a combination of compensatory award, hush money, and redundancy. Work out the statutory minimum for redundancy - it should definitely be more than that. She is also looking for money to cover the grievance (how much is the guy's action worth to her) and also a sum of money for keeping quiet about it. For the company to offer this suggests that they really don't want their dirty laundry aired in public.
Straight off the bat I would ask for immediate termination and for the three months' gross salary to be added to the compromise agreement (up to £30k of compromise agreement is free of tax so it's worth a fair bit more money that way).
I would also ask for and secure an agreed reference to ensure that nothing in there suggests anything odd about the way she left the company, meaning that a story can be concocted in following job interviews.
What is odd about this story is that the complaint was put in on the say so of her line manager - does this make the manager complicit in wanting this 'male' to be complained about.
Would this manager want it made public that he was behind the complaint?
Something is not right here.
They are very keen to get rid and are putting pressure on to settle early. They must know it will not stand up to legal inspection unless proper time and legal advice has been sought.
Your friend definitely sounds better off out of this company/environment so should be wanting to accept the compromise but should be screwing them for every penny she can - and what has been offered is nowhere near enough. Can you give us an indication of her current salary and a broad description of the complaint. I think that way we can suggest a level of financial compensation that would be appropriate.
Forgot to say that she has been made ill by all this and this should be taken into account too. I'd be tempted to try to get a total figure close to what would be a years net pay as it is going to take some time to recover and then sometime to find another job. The figures mentioned won't last long in these circumstances.
Remember they won't want this to go to a tribunal.
Would this manager want it made public that he was behind the complaint?
Something is not right here.
They are very keen to get rid and are putting pressure on to settle early. They must know it will not stand up to legal inspection unless proper time and legal advice has been sought.
Your friend definitely sounds better off out of this company/environment so should be wanting to accept the compromise but should be screwing them for every penny she can - and what has been offered is nowhere near enough. Can you give us an indication of her current salary and a broad description of the complaint. I think that way we can suggest a level of financial compensation that would be appropriate.
Forgot to say that she has been made ill by all this and this should be taken into account too. I'd be tempted to try to get a total figure close to what would be a years net pay as it is going to take some time to recover and then sometime to find another job. The figures mentioned won't last long in these circumstances.
Remember they won't want this to go to a tribunal.
Edited by elanfan on Sunday 24th November 22:08
elanfan said:
What is odd about this story is that the complaint was put in on the say so of her line manager - does this make the manager complicit in wanting this 'male' to be complained about.
Would this manager want it made public that he was behind the complaint?
Something is not right here.
They are very keen to get rid and are putting pressure on to settle early. They must know it will not stand up to legal inspection unless proper time and legal advice has been sought.
Your friend definitely sounds better off out of this company/environment so should be wanting to accept the compromise but should be screwing them for every penny she can - and what has been offered is nowhere near enough. Can you give us an indication of her current salary and a broad description of the complaint. I think that way we can suggest a level of financial compensation that would be appropriate.
Forgot to say that she has been made ill by all this and this should be taken into account too. I'd be tempted to try to get a total figure close to what would be a years net pay as it is going to take some time to recover and then sometime to find another job. The figures mentioned won't last long in these circumstances.
Remember they won't want this to go to a tribunal.
You have email.Would this manager want it made public that he was behind the complaint?
Something is not right here.
They are very keen to get rid and are putting pressure on to settle early. They must know it will not stand up to legal inspection unless proper time and legal advice has been sought.
Your friend definitely sounds better off out of this company/environment so should be wanting to accept the compromise but should be screwing them for every penny she can - and what has been offered is nowhere near enough. Can you give us an indication of her current salary and a broad description of the complaint. I think that way we can suggest a level of financial compensation that would be appropriate.
Forgot to say that she has been made ill by all this and this should be taken into account too. I'd be tempted to try to get a total figure close to what would be a years net pay as it is going to take some time to recover and then sometime to find another job. The figures mentioned won't last long in these circumstances.
Remember they won't want this to go to a tribunal.
Edited by elanfan on Sunday 24th November 22:08
Get some proper legal advice asap. Plenty of employment law specialists out there who will give you a free initial consultation. You'll need a solicitor to sign off any settlement agreement anyway so it's better to engage them now so they can help maximise your friends settlement figure. They can also run all the day to day dealing between her and the employer so hopefully that'll help the stress levels.
IANAL but I think the law has changed recently (it's now called a settlement agreement rather than a compromise) whereby employers can approach staff with offers such as these without any future legal consequences. They've also written without prejudice on the letter of course and I'm not sure what the difference is but your friend won't be able to use it against them should it come to a tribunal.
As I said I'm not a lawyer but this is how it was explained to me recently when I was on the receiving end of something like this. It was a very stressful time so I can't imagine how it must feel if you're already off work with stress. Best of luck to your friend
IANAL but I think the law has changed recently (it's now called a settlement agreement rather than a compromise) whereby employers can approach staff with offers such as these without any future legal consequences. They've also written without prejudice on the letter of course and I'm not sure what the difference is but your friend won't be able to use it against them should it come to a tribunal.
As I said I'm not a lawyer but this is how it was explained to me recently when I was on the receiving end of something like this. It was a very stressful time so I can't imagine how it must feel if you're already off work with stress. Best of luck to your friend
The OP does not provide much information on the situation. There is no suggestion that the role is redundant so going in at what might be an inflated company enhanced redundancy based figure isn't necessarily the right approach. The flip side to the situation is that the company can simply manage the person out of the business very fairly for no additional cost other than any ongoing salary (which may now be reduced or later be nil, depending on the sick pay policy). If they are simply looking to save some time and management hassle and help out an otherwise good long term employee then there is little point pushing up the number as they will simply take the offer away and manage him/her out.
delboy735 said:
Hi everybody, just looking for a bit of advise to help a close friend of mine.
Said Friend is currently off work due to "stress at work".....to cut a very long story short, she works for a large multinational company, and recently put in a letter of grievance about a male employee ( on the say-so of her line Manager )...anyway, as said,short..she is now off work, and receiving letters from the Head Office asking if she will accept a severance pay of £9k + 3 months wage, then sign lots of paperwork to keep quiet.
Just asking really if this is lawful seeing as she is already off work as mentioned earlier, and if so, is the sum of money offered fair, given she has worked for this company for over 20 years ?
The reference to a 'male' employee in the grievance suggests an allegation of improper conduct of the employer. This is not something that should be dealt with by either a compromise agreement or settlement agreement and the offer could result in a claim for unfair constructive dismissal.Said Friend is currently off work due to "stress at work".....to cut a very long story short, she works for a large multinational company, and recently put in a letter of grievance about a male employee ( on the say-so of her line Manager )...anyway, as said,short..she is now off work, and receiving letters from the Head Office asking if she will accept a severance pay of £9k + 3 months wage, then sign lots of paperwork to keep quiet.
Just asking really if this is lawful seeing as she is already off work as mentioned earlier, and if so, is the sum of money offered fair, given she has worked for this company for over 20 years ?
If this is the case the heading 'without prejudice' is ineffective.
Your friend should seek the advice of an employment solicitor or at least CAB. Do not advise her on the basis of opinions here as to what is or is not a 'good' offer.
Edited by Zeeky on Monday 25th November 22:26
Zeeky said:
The reference to a 'male' employee in the grievance suggests an allegation of improper conduct of the employer. This is not something that should be dealt with by either a compromise agreement or settlement agreement and the offer could result in a claim for unfair constructive dismissal.
If this is the case the heading 'without prejudice' is ineffective.
Your friend should seek the advice of an employment solicitor or at least CAB. Do not advise her on the basis of opinions here as to what is or is not a 'good' offer.
Good advice thanks, I have already spoken to her about an employment law solicitor, tomorrow she is going to phone one close to our home town.If this is the case the heading 'without prejudice' is ineffective.
Your friend should seek the advice of an employment solicitor or at least CAB. Do not advise her on the basis of opinions here as to what is or is not a 'good' offer.
Edited by Zeeky on Monday 25th November 22:26
I just hope she gets sorted out quickly, so she can try to move forward.
Most of the advice received here has been good and positive, so just a quick "Thank-you" all for that.
Vaud said:
Davepoth gives good advice, except I would push for 6 months and leave some negotiation room to come down to 3, but then I'm pretty pushy.
A grievance in place gives you good leverage.
I didn't really want to suggest where to go with that (IANAL and all that) but a useful rule of thumb is that if you refuse their offer and claim unfair or constructive dismissal it will cost them around £10k to lawyer up and attend an employment tribunal, regardless of whether they win or lose. It has to be worth at least that much to them to settle, so start from there. As Vaud says, aim high, you might be pleasantly surprised. A grievance in place gives you good leverage.
davepoth said:
I didn't really want to suggest where to go with that (IANAL and all that) but a useful rule of thumb is that if you refuse their offer and claim unfair or constructive dismissal it will cost them around £10k to lawyer up and attend an employment tribunal, regardless of whether they win or lose. It has to be worth at least that much to them to settle, so start from there. As Vaud says, aim high, you might be pleasantly surprised.
Good points, and to stress, I am also not a lawyer. My experience tells me that when you are talking in the £1000's or £10,000s, companies generally settle. BUt that is my experience and sometimes companies are blinded by the issue, not costs, however well advised.We go to tribunal very rarely. It requires the other party to be claiming >£1M (broadly) for us to break that rule...
The cost is only part of the picture when an employer goes to tribunal. In the past 7 years or so I would estimate that for various companies I have been involved in around 8 contentious claims which have gone as far as the employee submitting a claim of which 1 was settled as we were on a sticky wicket. The cost for an employer is relatively insignificant compare to an out of work ex employee to get to the same stage of proceedings. Don't under estimate the time, effort and emotional attachment that goes into such claims. As a claimant you have to sit there in a room in front of 3 panel members. The only other person in your line of sight is the opposing counsel. This can last from a couple of hours to days. It really isn't much fun especially if you are taking time out from a new job. As an employer if you have a good case why would you settle? Out of principle many employers will go all the way as they do not want to be seen as weak or pay out just because a ballsy employee makes a fuss. One tribunal we actually lost on a minor procedural slip up and we 'lost' the case. The claimant was awarded something like £2k having made a claim for approaching £100k. There not much of that left after 2.5 days. Many people think unfair dismissal awards are in the £10k's but the reality is that the average award is I understand less than £5k. You have to pay your costs out of that as costs are rarely awarded.
edc said:
As an employer if you have a good case why would you settle?
Most claims are for less than the average cost of attending a Tribunal, You can't claim the costs back from the claimant (except in very limited circumstances), so it would seem a bit daft to say "I'll have my day in...Tribunal!" Spend thousands on a Lawyer, have it end up in the local papers if it's a bit juicy, and then even if you win you're out of pocket. If the amount being claimed is a lot more than the cost of defending it, and you aren't worried about the PR fallout than it's quite sensible to fight it all the way.
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