Previous employer owes me money, guidance required..
Discussion
Hey guys, I could do with a bit of guidance here.
I worked in a hotel this winter just gone from January to mid April, the hotel was in Austria but it is a UK based company. They owe me 200 pounds (half a months wages) and they owe the rest of the staff half a months wages too. I know it's not a lot of money but I could do with it reasonably soon, and its mostly a matter of principal. Before anyone says it's not worth the hassle, I don't care.
Basically the story the hotel owners and managers (family company) are telling us is that the hotel made no money at the end of the season (true) and that the money has had to come from the father's accountancy practise. As yet he doesn't have the funds to pay us.
I've phoned the hotel on numerous occasions and emailed the man who is responsible for the finances (the father of the family) and I keep getting told that I will be paid, but when they have the money. I've been made aware that they owe previous employees money from well before I started working there, so I'm not quite buying the whole "you will be paid" line.
I'm not really sure where I stand legally here given that I worked abroad. So I need some help clarifying that situation, and also a bit of guidance on what to do next. my next line was to enquire again as to when I get paid and if I don't get a satisfactory response, to threaten them with my solicitor, but if anyone has any better ideas I'm open to suggestions.
I can find out where they live in the UK quite easily, but physically going there to retrieve my money would end up costing me more than I'm owed, although doing so would give me personal satisfaction.
I'm happy to share my email conversations with anyone who is interested, via PM.
Notes:
1) They own the hotel outright, worth 500.000 at least
2) They just sold land, no idea how much for, but decent whack as far as I gather
3) They just sold their house, I understand to free up some money. They are renting now, so that means they must have money, even if not completely available.
4) The parents gave me the impression that they think we should be grateful for even being given work, let alone money to compensate that work.
5) The father is an accountant and works for himself, as well as running the hotel finances.
6) I suspect they do have cash flow issues, I did see some hints of this going along. I don't think however, that they are broke.
I finished work on the 15th of april, and should have been paid at the end of april.
Thanks guys.
I worked in a hotel this winter just gone from January to mid April, the hotel was in Austria but it is a UK based company. They owe me 200 pounds (half a months wages) and they owe the rest of the staff half a months wages too. I know it's not a lot of money but I could do with it reasonably soon, and its mostly a matter of principal. Before anyone says it's not worth the hassle, I don't care.
Basically the story the hotel owners and managers (family company) are telling us is that the hotel made no money at the end of the season (true) and that the money has had to come from the father's accountancy practise. As yet he doesn't have the funds to pay us.
I've phoned the hotel on numerous occasions and emailed the man who is responsible for the finances (the father of the family) and I keep getting told that I will be paid, but when they have the money. I've been made aware that they owe previous employees money from well before I started working there, so I'm not quite buying the whole "you will be paid" line.
I'm not really sure where I stand legally here given that I worked abroad. So I need some help clarifying that situation, and also a bit of guidance on what to do next. my next line was to enquire again as to when I get paid and if I don't get a satisfactory response, to threaten them with my solicitor, but if anyone has any better ideas I'm open to suggestions.
I can find out where they live in the UK quite easily, but physically going there to retrieve my money would end up costing me more than I'm owed, although doing so would give me personal satisfaction.
I'm happy to share my email conversations with anyone who is interested, via PM.
Notes:
1) They own the hotel outright, worth 500.000 at least
2) They just sold land, no idea how much for, but decent whack as far as I gather
3) They just sold their house, I understand to free up some money. They are renting now, so that means they must have money, even if not completely available.
4) The parents gave me the impression that they think we should be grateful for even being given work, let alone money to compensate that work.
5) The father is an accountant and works for himself, as well as running the hotel finances.
6) I suspect they do have cash flow issues, I did see some hints of this going along. I don't think however, that they are broke.
I finished work on the 15th of april, and should have been paid at the end of april.
Thanks guys.
Edited by matthias73 on Monday 2nd June 03:29
Edited by matthias73 on Monday 2nd June 03:31
I can't advise you until I know whether you have made an English contract or an Austrian contract. Was the contract evidenced by writing or email? If so, was there an express choice of law clause? If not, where was they contract made - England or Austria? Was the unit of account sterling or Euros?
If your contract was governed by English law, then you can issue a claim in the County Court using the MCOL website. There will be a modest fee for doing this. The company will have no defence to the claim, but the real issue will be enforcing judgment against a company that sounds like it plays fast and loose and uses its employees as free banks. This sort of company run by this sort of tinpot accountant will be adept at dodging enforcement proceedings. The amount due is too small to issue a winding up petition on.
If your contract was governed by English law, then you can issue a claim in the County Court using the MCOL website. There will be a modest fee for doing this. The company will have no defence to the claim, but the real issue will be enforcing judgment against a company that sounds like it plays fast and loose and uses its employees as free banks. This sort of company run by this sort of tinpot accountant will be adept at dodging enforcement proceedings. The amount due is too small to issue a winding up petition on.
PS: was the company paying minimum wage? 400 a month sounds very low if the job was full time. If the company routinely paid below minimum wage, HMRC might be interested, as it has enforcement powers in this regard, and a company has to sit up and notice once HMRC starts to investigate its payment practices, but the situation would be complicated by the location of the workplace in Austria, and it might be a matter for Austrian minimum wage enforcement.
PPS: Just in case Zeeky or his fanboi Singlecoil should wander in here, I am trying to help the OP using my knowledge and experience base (note the word experience). I am not trying to write a thesis on the law of contract, employment law, conflict of laws, or NMW, or attempting to cut and paste the entire European legal codex from the internet.
PPS: Just in case Zeeky or his fanboi Singlecoil should wander in here, I am trying to help the OP using my knowledge and experience base (note the word experience). I am not trying to write a thesis on the law of contract, employment law, conflict of laws, or NMW, or attempting to cut and paste the entire European legal codex from the internet.
Absent an express and valid choice of governing law, the governing law would be determined by the Rome I Regulation and so would be Austrian law, because the work was performed in Austria. In any event, even if the law of the contract is English, Austrian statutory employment law would apply in some respects. For example, Austrian minimum wage and working time rules would apply.
Summary by the EU Commission:
"individual employment contracts – the applicable law may be determined on the basis of the freedom of choice principle, provided that the level of protection granted to the employee remains the same as with the applicable law in the absence of choice. In the latter case, the law governing the contract will be that of the country where, or from where, the employee carries out his/her tasks. If this cannot be determined, the applicable law will be that of the country where the place of business is located. However, if the contract is more closely related to another country, that country’s law will apply."
If Zeeky doesn't approve of that summary, he can sue the Commission.
Summary by the EU Commission:
"individual employment contracts – the applicable law may be determined on the basis of the freedom of choice principle, provided that the level of protection granted to the employee remains the same as with the applicable law in the absence of choice. In the latter case, the law governing the contract will be that of the country where, or from where, the employee carries out his/her tasks. If this cannot be determined, the applicable law will be that of the country where the place of business is located. However, if the contract is more closely related to another country, that country’s law will apply."
If Zeeky doesn't approve of that summary, he can sue the Commission.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 2nd June 09:26
Thanks for the replies so far guys.
I don't have a written contract in my hand. As this was seasonal work and not worth a great deal of money, I didn't deem it important at the time. Lesson learnt, I suppose. I don't even know what country I was paying taxes in-maybe I wasn't. I just received 400 pounds every month. The minimum wage thing doesn't hold water as you receive board and food too. I will say that some of the staff (cleaners) were earning 300 pounds a month and I worked out that given the ridiculous hours they put in, were probably earning a pound an hour, if that.
I don't have a written contract in my hand. As this was seasonal work and not worth a great deal of money, I didn't deem it important at the time. Lesson learnt, I suppose. I don't even know what country I was paying taxes in-maybe I wasn't. I just received 400 pounds every month. The minimum wage thing doesn't hold water as you receive board and food too. I will say that some of the staff (cleaners) were earning 300 pounds a month and I worked out that given the ridiculous hours they put in, were probably earning a pound an hour, if that.
I did some work for a chap in Oct 13 worth about £600, he promised to pay then started to avoid my calls and has not paid it yet despite vociferous chasing from various parties at my own cost. It looks like he won't pay and it will cost me c£2k to make him bankrupt etc which obviously isn't worth it. Imho leave it be and just learn a lesson not to end up in hock to people if you can avoid it.
TX.
TX.
You should not dismiss the minimum wage point out of hand. In the UK, food cannot be counted towards minimum wage. A certain amount (£34.37 a week) can be counted in respect of lodging. Austria has different rules based on collective agreements, but there might still be an issue of local employment law.
It sounds to me like this employer deliberately exploits young and not very well informed workers.
It sounds to me like this employer deliberately exploits young and not very well informed workers.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 4th June 08:09
Breadvan72 said:
...
PPS: Just in case Zeeky or his fanboi Singlecoil should wander in here, I am trying to help the OP using my knowledge and experience base (note the word experience). I am not trying to write a thesis on the law of contract, employment law, conflict of laws, or NMW, or attempting to cut and paste the entire European legal codex from the internet.
You may be trying but you are also succeeding due to relying on your knowledge of the NMW. Usually, I do not comment on helpful posts unless I can add something useful.PPS: Just in case Zeeky or his fanboi Singlecoil should wander in here, I am trying to help the OP using my knowledge and experience base (note the word experience). I am not trying to write a thesis on the law of contract, employment law, conflict of laws, or NMW, or attempting to cut and paste the entire European legal codex from the internet.
Sometimes your posts are, quite simply, wrong and it is helpful to point this out.
It is misleading to conflate useful and informed advice as above with the nonesense you have written on another thread,
I have no doubt that the personal attacks will continue as I have no doubt I will also continue to post advice based on my experience and knowledge.
You do need to grow up. You are not in charge of SP&L.
That "knowledge and experience" would be, er, what exactly? I have 27 years experience of practising law, and use it to try and help people here who have legal problems. You appear to want people here to believe that you are a lawyer, but I believe that you aren't one, and you decline to say what it is that you do for a living. You might perhaps be someone who teaches A level law or similar. You offer no help, and derail many legal threads with your pedantic interjections based on cutting and pasting from the internet and what appears to be zero real world practical legal experience. Well, at least you have impressed a kitchen seller who fancies himself as an amateur legal expert, and no doubt you impress yourself with your amazing ability wilfully to misinterpret what others say and bog down discussions with your pettifogging and point scoring. As you are infesting this sub forum as well as S,P and L, I will leave it to you and singlecoil to solve all the legal problems from now on, based on all this "experience" of yours that is so top secret that you can't tell anyone about it, as life is too short to argue with wannabes.
Terminator X said:
I did some work for a chap in Oct 13 worth about £600, he promised to pay then started to avoid my calls and has not paid it yet despite vociferous chasing from various parties at my own cost. It looks like he won't pay and it will cost me c£2k to make him bankrupt etc which obviously isn't worth it. Imho leave it be and just learn a lesson not to end up in hock to people if you can avoid it.
TX.
I'm not going to leave it be. If I do that, he's going to keep on doing it. If it does emerge that the only way I can get paid is if I actually lose money through fighting it, then I will happily do that, but once my career as an Army Officer kicks off in earnest in September.TX.
But I don't want to do all of that. I want my money now, I want my former colleagues to get their money now, and I want the matter to be settled without faff.
And Breadvan, you seem to know what you are talking about and I'd much rather you stayed to help me out!
My dad suggested I get a solicitor to write the company an email/letter addressed from the solicitors firm to show I mean business, and if that doesn't spur him into action, take the company to the small claims court.
What do you chaps think to that?
Regarding the minimum wage thing, I'm not sure exactly what can be done about it. Every ski company in Europe seems to work like this. Young, naïve people are given a job with free food and accommodation. I personally had no major quarrel with my situation-I had a place to stay, I went snowboarding most days, and I didn't have to pay for food.
I did however work reasonably hard for the company and as a very qualified ski technician, they got great value for money from me-Hence, I want the money owed to me.
Breadvan could I maybe inbox you some of the emails the slimeball in question sent to me so you can see what you think? I'll wax your skis in return...(long shot I know
I did however work reasonably hard for the company and as a very qualified ski technician, they got great value for money from me-Hence, I want the money owed to me.
Breadvan could I maybe inbox you some of the emails the slimeball in question sent to me so you can see what you think? I'll wax your skis in return...(long shot I know
Breadvan72 said:
That "knowledge and experience" would be, er, what exactly? I have 27 years experience of practising law, and use it to try and help people here who have legal problems.
Your experience is limited to your areas of practice. You demonstrate knowledge of public law, restrictive covenants in employment contracts and TUPE that is clearly considerable. You demonstrate weaknesses in other areas such as disability discrimination, criminal and PI. I recall on this forum me correcting you on disability discrimination and you correcting me on TUPE. For me it is about accuracy and usefulness of information. For you it appears to be more about you saving face. That is a product in my estimation of giving too much of yourself away on the internet. If someone corrects me it matters not. To you it matters intensely. So intensely you would rather derail a thread than let someone get away with it.
As I have nothing to add on the NMW I shall leave the OP to you.
Zeeky said:
Your experience is limited to your areas of practice. You demonstrate knowledge of public law, restrictive covenants in employment contracts and TUPE that is clearly considerable. You demonstrate weaknesses in other areas such as disability discrimination, criminal and PI. I recall on this forum me correcting you on disability discrimination and you correcting me on TUPE.
For me it is about accuracy and usefulness of information. For you it appears to be more about you saving face. That is a product in my estimation of giving too much of yourself away on the internet. If someone corrects me it matters not. To you it matters intensely. So intensely you would rather derail a thread than let someone get away with it.
As I have nothing to add on the NMW I shall leave the OP to you.
It's been asked before.For me it is about accuracy and usefulness of information. For you it appears to be more about you saving face. That is a product in my estimation of giving too much of yourself away on the internet. If someone corrects me it matters not. To you it matters intensely. So intensely you would rather derail a thread than let someone get away with it.
As I have nothing to add on the NMW I shall leave the OP to you.
Are you a lawyer?
Edited by Vaud on Wednesday 4th June 22:28
matthias73 said:
I'm not going to leave it be. If I do that, he's going to keep on doing it. If it does emerge that the only way I can get paid is if I actually lose money through fighting it, then I will happily do that, but once my career as an Army Officer kicks off in earnest in September.
I see, so you'd rather pay 2 grand to see him bankrupt for the sake of 400 notes and still might not get your money ... Makes sense 
TX.
PS my chap has a CCJ against him for the debt and still won't pay.
Breadvan72, your posts on Pistonheads are by far the most valuable of any poster. Please do not be tempted to stop due to the annoyance from others. Your posts have been invaluable to so many people who, otherwise, would be at the mercy of amature internet lawyers. Your credentials are beyond reproach and the reason that you post is for the exactly right reason. Please continue with the much respected advice.
Terminator X said:
matthias73 said:
I'm not going to leave it be. If I do that, he's going to keep on doing it. If it does emerge that the only way I can get paid is if I actually lose money through fighting it, then I will happily do that, but once my career as an Army Officer kicks off in earnest in September.
I see, so you'd rather pay 2 grand to see him bankrupt for the sake of 400 notes and still might not get your money ... Makes sense TX.
PS my chap has a CCJ against him for the debt and still won't pay.
I don't want to see this happen in the future and I don't want him to think he can get away with it. If that means Ii have to spend a bit of money in the future, that's fine.
However, like I said that isn't an option right now and I'd quite like the money now, so I can do nice things with it before my career starts. Moreover, a couple of guys I worked with are owed more in the region of 4-600 pounds and one of them is keen to come on holiday with me. He needs that money in order to come.
And why the hell are you guys bickering?
IPK said:
Breadvan72, your posts on Pistonheads are by far the most valuable of any poster. Please do not be tempted to stop due to the annoyance from others. Your posts have been invaluable to so many people who, otherwise, would be at the mercy of amature internet lawyers. Your credentials are beyond reproach and the reason that you post is for the exactly right reason. Please continue with the much respected advice.
I'll second that 
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