Training and development should be done in employee's time?
Discussion
Hi all, after a quick opinion.
Do you believe an employer has any responsibility to allow and enable staff to complete training in company time, or would you expect employee's to complete development and training in their own time?
Background - I work for an IT consultancy of 50ish people implementing one of Oracle's ERP systems as an Oracle partner. For those that know the industry, Oracle is working towards replacing it's numerous acquisitions with a single product ("Fusion") and my company is looking to become "Fusion Enabled". However, it is not willing to allow consultants to undertake training on company time due to the loss of revenue that would cause.
In the past, training has been generally offered to those on the bench whilst those of use that are permanently chargeable have such requests turned down due to client commitments and potential lost revenue.
So, is this normal (in consultancy or in general)? In a past life I did a similar role as an in-house permie and training, for the benefit of the employee and the company, was never an issue.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Do you believe an employer has any responsibility to allow and enable staff to complete training in company time, or would you expect employee's to complete development and training in their own time?
Background - I work for an IT consultancy of 50ish people implementing one of Oracle's ERP systems as an Oracle partner. For those that know the industry, Oracle is working towards replacing it's numerous acquisitions with a single product ("Fusion") and my company is looking to become "Fusion Enabled". However, it is not willing to allow consultants to undertake training on company time due to the loss of revenue that would cause.
In the past, training has been generally offered to those on the bench whilst those of use that are permanently chargeable have such requests turned down due to client commitments and potential lost revenue.
So, is this normal (in consultancy or in general)? In a past life I did a similar role as an in-house permie and training, for the benefit of the employee and the company, was never an issue.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
wiggy001 said:
So, is this normal (in consultancy or in general)? In a past life I did a similar role as an in-house permie and training, for the benefit of the employee and the company, was never an issue.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
In my experience this is normal in consultancy. We are a VAR for SAP so have similar challenges. Obviously bench time is best but for people on projects with key milestones & golives coming up that's not practical. No employer or practice lead is going to want to pull a whole team off chargeable work to do some training unless there is no option. If the option is to do self-learning after core hours then that's part & parcel of consulting. It is what I expect from my team. If any of them had a particular problem with it then I would respect their view and work something out but would also question whether this line of work is for them.Any thoughts gratefully received.
Yes, I would say it's normal for consultancies. I worked for one from 1994 to 1997 and all training ran from Friday night to Sunday mid-day several times year which pi**ed my family off no end as often I had to work away which meant seeing them only on Sunday night then off again on Monday!! It annoyed me more and more so left and set up on my own and never looked back.
davepoth said:
It's a bit short-sighted of the company if ensuring the employees are trained is a business objective. If take-up is low they'll probably change their tune.
Absolutely this. All the consultants where I am have training/development objectives as part of their overall annual commitments.
They are expected to carry out a minimum amount each month in order that they are best positioned to provide the best service to customers.
Perik Omo said:
Yes, I would say it's normal for consultancies. I worked for one from 1994 to 1997 and all training ran from Friday night to Sunday mid-day several times year which pi**ed my family off no end as often I had to work away which meant seeing them only on Sunday night then off again on Monday!! It annoyed me more and more so left and set up on my own and never looked back.
That is taking liberties IMO. The type of training/learning would expect are a few hours over some evenings. Thanks for the comments on this. Sounds like it's not completely unreasonably in a consultancy. I guess my issues are that we have previously, in theory at least, had a training budget that could be used to take us off client sites for training, and also had a number of "reading days" we could use per year, both of which have now been revoked.
The bit that really grates though is that anyone on the bench can do all the training they need whilst those of us that are 100% chargeable on long term projects miss out.
As a company, we absolutely need this enablement so, as mentioned above, if take up is low I expect the company will need to review this.
The bit that really grates though is that anyone on the bench can do all the training they need whilst those of us that are 100% chargeable on long term projects miss out.
As a company, we absolutely need this enablement so, as mentioned above, if take up is low I expect the company will need to review this.
You are an employee, but your own career advancement and future value in the work market is dependent on the skills and experience you have gained, and keeping ahead is important.
I'd say it's pretty s
t not to be able to gain the knowledge you will need in the future to do your job, if doing it in your own time is impossible due to family commitments, or if it causes health issues (how many hours is reasonable), and ultimately there's a legal point where when they try to make you redundant because you didn't gain the training you need, you can suggest it's unfair.
On the other hand, take whatever training you can get to stay ahead, and use it to your advantage.
Unless you are Freelance in which case tough, because if they paid for your training the HMRC might mention IR35.
I'd say it's pretty s
t not to be able to gain the knowledge you will need in the future to do your job, if doing it in your own time is impossible due to family commitments, or if it causes health issues (how many hours is reasonable), and ultimately there's a legal point where when they try to make you redundant because you didn't gain the training you need, you can suggest it's unfair.On the other hand, take whatever training you can get to stay ahead, and use it to your advantage.
Unless you are Freelance in which case tough, because if they paid for your training the HMRC might mention IR35.
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