Self employed earnings legal advice required

[iacabu]

I hope this is ok to post in here. Citizens advice bureau will be contacted in the morning but I wanted as much help as possible.

A close friend of mine has been a self employed hair dresser at a particular salon since approx November. She has no written contract in place, as seems to be the norm in this business.

She took the job after being promised certain terms by the manager, but this person left before she started due to ill health and the owners gave her worse terms instead.

Over the last few weeks she has become increasingly frustrated with the owners changing her wage every week. On the day she is due to be paid they would decide to take a bigger cut for themselves.
She started to look elsewhere and has now left giving them no notice. Obviously there was nothing written stating she had to work notice. She did offer to work some though but they declined.

Now they are withholding pay from her for work she has already done.

With the lack of contract etc can they do this? What steps should she take to fight it?

FYI at time of leaving she was paying £300 per week for the chair and 50% commission on money taken.

[Jasandjules]

Upon what basis are they withholding money for work done?

[iacabu]

So far the only reason given is because they had to cover her clients this week (which doesn't cost them anything) and because they ordered stock of colours which she was due to pay for (none have been used and they are in their possession to use in future anyway)

So in my opinion they have no basis to keep it other than they don't want to pay up out of spite.

I will be contacting the CAB tomorrow and have a friends mum asking a previous employer tomorrow also (a local solicitors)

I am only asking on here to get as much help as I can as I'm sure there are some knowledgeable members

Also the owners have told her not to contact them again or send a letter from a solicitor. I don't think they expect the latter so my aim is to call their bluff if possible through my friend.

This is all the contact so far, I advised my friend to acknowledge their reply and say they will be in contact shortly.

[randlemarcus]

On what basis did she think that people who had been taking the mickey would go "oh, right, better not" when she left? While she is entitled to those wages, its vanishingly unlikely she'll get them. Are they likely to badmouth her with other salon owners whether she kicks up a fuss or not?

[illmonkey]

iacabu said:

So far the only reason given is because they had to cover her clients this week (which doesn't cost them anything) and because they ordered stock of colours which she was due to pay for (none have been used and they are in their possession to use in future anyway)

how does covering the clients cost nothing?
Why does she expect items ordered for her, to be paid for by them? They are hers, she either pays for them and leaves them, or takes them.

[megaphone]

How much does she think she is owed?

[Jasandjules]

iacabu said:

So far the only reason given is because they had to cover her clients this week (which doesn't cost them anything) and because they ordered stock of colours which she was due to pay for (none have been used and they are in their possession to use in future anyway)

So in my opinion they have no basis to keep it other than they don't want to pay up out of spite.

I will be contacting the CAB tomorrow and have a friends mum asking a previous employer tomorrow also (a local solicitors)

I am only asking on here to get as much help as I can as I'm sure there are some knowledgeable members

Also the owners have told her not to contact them again or send a letter from a solicitor. I don't think they expect the latter so my aim is to call their bluff if possible through my friend.

This is all the contact so far, I advised my friend to acknowledge their reply and say they will be in contact shortly.

If they covered her clients they have suffered no loss.

The product, if they want her to pay for it then they will need to provide it to her.

Did they put in writing not to contact them again? If so, I would write once more, in open correspondence, stating the above and that she is owed X amount, and that if it is not paid within seven days she will issue a claim without further notice.

[iacabu]

randlemarcus said:

On what basis did she think that people who had been taking the mickey would go "oh, right, better not" when she left? While she is entitled to those wages, its vanishingly unlikely she'll get them. Are they likely to badmouth her with other salon owners whether she kicks up a fuss or not?

Sorry, I don't get your first comment?? I fear you are right that she may not see this money.

I'm not entirely sure if they will be that immature about it. She has accepted a job a lot further away anyway so shouldn't really be an issue

illmonkey said:

how does covering the clients cost nothing?
Why does she expect items ordered for her, to be paid for by them? They are hers, she either pays for them and leaves them, or takes them.

If another stylist did them, then they will still get the same money, it makes no difference who cuts the clients hair to the owners. If no one covered them then they didn't take the money but haven't lost anything as such...clients cancel all the time. At worst they will have rescheduled.

The colours will be used by other stylists anyway so all it means is they will be slightly over stocked for a week or two. Her paying for colours was another one of the owners ways of making more money out of her and has only been in place for a few weeks, much to my friends anger.

megaphone said:

How much does she think she is owed?

I'm uncertain of the figure, but a week in hand (which I thought was unusual for someone self employed?), last weeks takings and money from something called deal monster (I don't know anything about it) I believe it's close to £1000.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes, but it's the cost involved in going that far. She now has no money until first pay day from her new job a good few weeks away....yes, I know she should have saved or had backup or whatever. Hopefully the threat of going down that route will make them pay up.

Jasandjules said:

If they covered her clients they have suffered no loss.

The product, if they want her to pay for it then they will need to provide it to her.

Did they put in writing not to contact them again? If so, I would write once more, in open correspondence, stating the above and that she is owed X amount, and that if it is not paid within seven days she will issue a claim without further notice.

Exactly.

This was said over text. I originally thought she'd be better speaking in person, but by texting them it allowed us to have any response in writing should they wish to deny anything.

That may be a good next step to take, writing formally giving them final notice to pay.

I have found out today also that she has spoken to 4 other girls who have all left and not been paid what they're owed.

[jonah35]

iacabu said:

I hope this is ok to post in here. Citizens advice bureau will be contacted in the morning but I wanted as much help as possible.

A close friend of mine has been a self employed hair dresser at a particular salon since approx November. She has no written contract in place, as seems to be the norm in this business.

She took the job after being promised certain terms by the manager, but this person left before she started due to ill health and the owners gave her worse terms instead.

Over the last few weeks she has become increasingly frustrated with the owners changing her wage every week. On the day she is due to be paid they would decide to take a bigger cut for themselves.
She started to look elsewhere and has now left giving them no notice. Obviously there was nothing written stating she had to work notice. She did offer to work some though but they declined.

Now they are withholding pay from her for work she has already done.

With the lack of contract etc can they do this? What steps should she take to fight it?

FYI at time of leaving she was paying £300 per week for the chair and 50% commission on money taken.

Sounds to me like your friend is an employee and not self employed. You talk about withholding her wage, day she is due to be paid, notice periods and so on.

[Cyberprog]

I'd agree there. It sounds like she is an employee.

HMRC have a website where you can answer a series of questions which helps to determine whether you are SE or PAYE. May be of some use.

She should consider contacting HMRC and see what they say, they may well get involved especially if there are NMW issues.

[randlemarcus]

iacabu said:

randlemarcus said:

On what basis did she think that people who had been taking the mickey would go "oh, right, better not" when she left? While she is entitled to those wages, its vanishingly unlikely she'll get them. Are they likely to badmouth her with other salon owners whether she kicks up a fuss or not?

Sorry, I don't get your first comment?? I fear you are right that she may not see this money.

I'm not entirely sure if they will be that immature about it. She has accepted a job a lot further away anyway so shouldn't really be an issue

Sorry, missed this last night. I meant that employers who are dreadful human beings tend not to magically change once they receive notice that you are leaving.

Fingers crossed it gets sorted out.

[Eric Mc]

In what way was she self employed?

[iacabu]

Cyberprog said:

I'd agree there. It sounds like she is an employee.

HMRC have a website where you can answer a series of questions which helps to determine whether you are SE or PAYE. May be of some use.

She should consider contacting HMRC and see what they say, they may well get involved especially if there are NMW issues.

Eric Mc said:

In what way was she self employed?

I have completed the test with her and it has come back as self employed. Thanks for that advice.

Basically she rents a chair in the salon and takes commission on the hair she does. She then does her own tax return. As with most salons, although they want someone SE, they expect them to put the hours into the salon even when not doing hair, thus essentially not being paid. It has been the case at numerous salons and just seems to be a dodgy business.

As soon as she is able to get her own salon she will, to avoid all the st owners who don't care about the workers, just money.

randlemarcus said:

Sorry, missed this last night. I meant that employers who are dreadful human beings tend not to magically change once they receive notice that you are leaving.

Fingers crossed it gets sorted out.

You're right, it was a risk but she took it and hopefully she won't end up out of pocket for it.
Thanks

[Amateurish]

Starting a claim online is only £60. Probably a worthwhile investment.

[Eric Mc]

iacabu said:

Cyberprog said:

I'd agree there. It sounds like she is an employee.

HMRC have a website where you can answer a series of questions which helps to determine whether you are SE or PAYE. May be of some use.

She should consider contacting HMRC and see what they say, they may well get involved especially if there are NMW issues.

Eric Mc said:

In what way was she self employed?

I have completed the test with her and it has come back as self employed. Thanks for that advice.

Basically she rents a chair in the salon and takes commission on the hair she does. She then does her own tax return. As with most salons, although they want someone SE, they expect them to put the hours into the salon even when not doing hair, thus essentially not being paid. It has been the case at numerous salons and just seems to be a dodgy business.

As soon as she is able to get her own salon she will, to avoid all the st owners who don't care about the workers, just money.

randlemarcus said:

Sorry, missed this last night. I meant that employers who are dreadful human beings tend not to magically change once they receive notice that you are leaving.

Fingers crossed it gets sorted out.

You're right, it was a risk but she took it and hopefully she won't end up out of pocket for it.
Thanks

Just checking. You did post it in the "employment" forum rather than the "business" forum.

Sometimes just because people claim they are self employed does not mean that they really are. In the salon business renting a chair is normal practice and can imply self employment. But the other factors have to be considered too - such as control over client/customer base, purchase of materials, control and management of the work, insurance etc.

As you say, if sufficient of these "tests" indicate self employment, then she was most probably self employed.

Regarding the nature of the contract, even if nothing was ever written down it is still likely that a contract was in place. The problem with unwritten contracts is proving what terms were agreed - which in turn makes it hard to show if and when terms were breached,

[megaphone]

How did she bill them for her charges? Invoices? Did they provide her invoices for the chair rent and other costs? Any other paper trail?

[stuart313]

Couple of lads, walk in and walk out with a chair, even better if someone is in it at the time.