Discussion
Any views on this.
An employee works shifts, but also does on-calls for the same employer. They are roistered to work on Friday 9-5 and Saturday 8-8. They are on-call Friday night.
They are called in at 8pm Friday night, getting home again at 7.45 Saturday morning. As a result they cant be at work at 8am Sat morning. However are told they will have to make up any hours they lose whilst sleeping another time.
Does this sound right?
An employee works shifts, but also does on-calls for the same employer. They are roistered to work on Friday 9-5 and Saturday 8-8. They are on-call Friday night.
They are called in at 8pm Friday night, getting home again at 7.45 Saturday morning. As a result they cant be at work at 8am Sat morning. However are told they will have to make up any hours they lose whilst sleeping another time.
Does this sound right?
what is the issues?
are you expecting to get paid for the the sleep time you would have been working, and not have to make up the time.
or is your objection that you won't let you take it as leave or unpaid instead of making up the time?
Where my wife works direct employees do get an amount of paid sleep time in that situation, it is in their contracts, not all the contractors get the same but they can just take the time off as unpaid
are you expecting to get paid for the the sleep time you would have been working, and not have to make up the time.
or is your objection that you won't let you take it as leave or unpaid instead of making up the time?
Where my wife works direct employees do get an amount of paid sleep time in that situation, it is in their contracts, not all the contractors get the same but they can just take the time off as unpaid
Yes i would suggest that you should get paid to sleep. If the employer has roistered you in such a way, and taken the chance that you wont get called out, then they should be the one taking the hit on the hours you cannot work. If you have no choice on the roister you are given when should you pay for managements foul ups?
This doesn't sound reasonable to me. If he is "on call" then he should not be expected to work another shift back to back. Indeed, the law states;
Minimum Daily and weekly Breaks
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 11 hours break between shifts (12 hours for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 24 hours break once a week or 48 hours one a fortnight (2 days for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
This is from the Working Time Regulations.
There is also the maximum working hours; I make 9-5 Mon-Fri + 8-8 Sat to be 52 Hours a week. If he is on call, what remuneration does he receive for this on call.
Maximum working hours
An employee cannot be required to work an average of more than 48 hours per week unless they have previously opted out in writing.
To calculate whether a worker has exceeded the limit, an average is taken over 17 weeks.
After a worker has signed an agreement to opt out of the 48-hour limit, they can opt back in, but the employer is entitled to require up to 3 months notice that an employee wants to cancel the opt out, by stating this in the original opt out agreement. If no notice period is given in the opt out agreement, the employee only needs to give 1 week’ notice.
A young worker (Age 16 – 18) cannot be required to work more than 8 hours in any one day, nor more than 40 hours in any one week. No opt out is available in respect of young workers.
Minimum Daily and weekly Breaks
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 11 hours break between shifts (12 hours for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 24 hours break once a week or 48 hours one a fortnight (2 days for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
This is from the Working Time Regulations.
There is also the maximum working hours; I make 9-5 Mon-Fri + 8-8 Sat to be 52 Hours a week. If he is on call, what remuneration does he receive for this on call.
Maximum working hours
An employee cannot be required to work an average of more than 48 hours per week unless they have previously opted out in writing.
To calculate whether a worker has exceeded the limit, an average is taken over 17 weeks.
After a worker has signed an agreement to opt out of the 48-hour limit, they can opt back in, but the employer is entitled to require up to 3 months notice that an employee wants to cancel the opt out, by stating this in the original opt out agreement. If no notice period is given in the opt out agreement, the employee only needs to give 1 week’ notice.
A young worker (Age 16 – 18) cannot be required to work more than 8 hours in any one day, nor more than 40 hours in any one week. No opt out is available in respect of young workers.
Edited by Cyberprog on Saturday 6th June 14:20
Chrisgr31 said:
Yes i would suggest that you should get paid to sleep. If the employer has roistered you in such a way, and taken the chance that you wont get called out, then they should be the one taking the hit on the hours you cannot work. If you have no choice on the roister you are given when should you pay for managements foul ups?
To a degree I would suggest that it depends on the pay system for the "call out". Where I used to work eons ago operations staff would get a fixed fee call out (say £50) and then time and a half / double time if they were actually called out to work.So the £50 was compensation for having to sit around at home in case they were needed and the Time and a half/double time was for the unsocial hours work. They would get a minimum 2 hours pay if they were called out.
If this had prevented them from working their normal shift they would have to take either flexi or annual leave.
This article here may be of some interest also of he is poorly paid;
http://www.rhhr.com/working-time-regulations-what-...
http://www.rhhr.com/working-time-regulations-what-...
It's a little different for me as it's not shifts but my minimum set working hours are 8:30 till 17:00 Monday to Friday. I do lots of over time starting earlier and finishing later than normal. I cover call out during week nights and weekends. If I'm called out and I work passed midnight, then if the next day is a normal working day I get to stay in bed the next day paid, for however many hours I'm out for up to 4 1/2 hours. I hope that makes sense.
I wouldn't be expected to have to make up the hours I was asleep for, as for safety you need to sleep, and as I'm doing the unsociable call out for my emplyer I expect something in return which is my rest time paid, other wise it's not worth putting myself out for it.
I wouldn't be expected to have to make up the hours I was asleep for, as for safety you need to sleep, and as I'm doing the unsociable call out for my emplyer I expect something in return which is my rest time paid, other wise it's not worth putting myself out for it.
It's a little different for me as it's not shifts but my minimum set working hours are 8:30 till 17:00 Monday to Friday. I do lots of over time starting earlier and finishing later than normal. I cover call out during week nights and weekends. If I'm called out and I work passed midnight, then if the next day is a normal working day I get to stay in bed the next day paid, for however many hours I'm out for up to 4 1/2 hours. I hope that makes sense.
I wouldn't be expected to have to make up the hours I was asleep for, as for safety you need to sleep, and as I'm doing the unsociable call out for my emplyer I expect something in return which is my rest time paid, other wise it's not worth putting myself out for it.
I wouldn't be expected to have to make up the hours I was asleep for, as for safety you need to sleep, and as I'm doing the unsociable call out for my emplyer I expect something in return which is my rest time paid, other wise it's not worth putting myself out for it.
Edited by richelli on Saturday 6th June 20:29
In my place, I've been called in whilst on call at 11pm, leaving at 9:30 the next morning.
I went home, slept, and come in the next day, the time was taken in lieu.
In previous job; I got a £60 fee (for being available) and then £5 for every 15 minutes working on an issue. This was just on a Saturday during respectable hours ( 8:30 - 6) every day.
I can't see they can expect you to work your normal shift after working through the night.
I went home, slept, and come in the next day, the time was taken in lieu.
In previous job; I got a £60 fee (for being available) and then £5 for every 15 minutes working on an issue. This was just on a Saturday during respectable hours ( 8:30 - 6) every day.
I can't see they can expect you to work your normal shift after working through the night.
Cyberprog said:
This doesn't sound reasonable to me. If he is "on call" then he should not be expected to work another shift back to back. Indeed, the law states;
Minimum Daily and weekly Breaks
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 11 hours break between shifts (12 hours for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 24 hours break once a week or 48 hours one a fortnight (2 days for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
This is from the Working Time Regulations.
There is also the maximum working hours; I make 9-5 Mon-Fri + 8-8 Sat to be 52 Hours a week. If he is on call, what remuneration does he receive for this on call.
Maximum working hours
An employee cannot be required to work an average of more than 48 hours per week unless they have previously opted out in writing.
To calculate whether a worker has exceeded the limit, an average is taken over 17 weeks.
After a worker has signed an agreement to opt out of the 48-hour limit, they can opt back in, but the employer is entitled to require up to 3 months notice that an employee wants to cancel the opt out, by stating this in the original opt out agreement. If no notice period is given in the opt out agreement, the employee only needs to give 1 week’ notice.
A young worker (Age 16 – 18) cannot be required to work more than 8 hours in any one day, nor more than 40 hours in any one week. No opt out is available in respect of young workers.
The rest periods don't apply to certain sectors.Minimum Daily and weekly Breaks
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 11 hours break between shifts (12 hours for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
A worker is entitled to a minimum of 24 hours break once a week or 48 hours one a fortnight (2 days for a young worker, age 16 – 18)
This is from the Working Time Regulations.
There is also the maximum working hours; I make 9-5 Mon-Fri + 8-8 Sat to be 52 Hours a week. If he is on call, what remuneration does he receive for this on call.
Maximum working hours
An employee cannot be required to work an average of more than 48 hours per week unless they have previously opted out in writing.
To calculate whether a worker has exceeded the limit, an average is taken over 17 weeks.
After a worker has signed an agreement to opt out of the 48-hour limit, they can opt back in, but the employer is entitled to require up to 3 months notice that an employee wants to cancel the opt out, by stating this in the original opt out agreement. If no notice period is given in the opt out agreement, the employee only needs to give 1 week’ notice.
A young worker (Age 16 – 18) cannot be required to work more than 8 hours in any one day, nor more than 40 hours in any one week. No opt out is available in respect of young workers.
Edited by Cyberprog on Saturday 6th June 14:20
Thanks for the comments.
For some additional information the person involved works part time, contracted to average of 30 hours a week, and is employed within the NHS. They get a small sum for being on-call and time and a half if called out. However seems to me there's not much point if you then have to work additional hours another time to make up for those that you have had to sleep in.
For some additional information the person involved works part time, contracted to average of 30 hours a week, and is employed within the NHS. They get a small sum for being on-call and time and a half if called out. However seems to me there's not much point if you then have to work additional hours another time to make up for those that you have had to sleep in.
I work in the NHS and work on an on call rota. Looking at your location it could well be the same Trust (ESHT?). We have a simple local agreement in place for taking rest time if called in late when on call because otherwise it's a complete mess. Normal working hours are 8.30-5 with an hour's unpaid lunch. If you're called in after midnight you don't have to come in until 1pm the following day. That way the manager is only losing 3.5 hours work from someone covering for overnight emergencies (which HAVE to be covered, where as losing staff during the day is no different to someone being sick, for example), and staff get a half decent rest.
Might be worth seeing if the line manager is willing to negotiate a local agreement like this. If not, get everyone to quit and offer their services at a rate slightly below agency fees
Might be worth seeing if the line manager is willing to negotiate a local agreement like this. If not, get everyone to quit and offer their services at a rate slightly below agency fees
Edited by zeDuffMan on Tuesday 9th June 16:17
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff