Trying to get an employee to retire
Discussion
It's a familiar story.
Some would ignore. Some would look to make redundant. Some would discuss the option of early retirement.
All of those miss the real issue if it is genuinely one of under performance, which should be tackled.
It could however be one of a lack of communication and good leadership. Without this the individual may not be inspired to go the extra mile. With it, they might just.
Good luck!
Some would ignore. Some would look to make redundant. Some would discuss the option of early retirement.
All of those miss the real issue if it is genuinely one of under performance, which should be tackled.
It could however be one of a lack of communication and good leadership. Without this the individual may not be inspired to go the extra mile. With it, they might just.
Good luck!
Sounds like you want them out but don't want to feel bad for pushing them out. Seriously grow pair.
If they are not doing the role they are paid to do, than a performance review with set goals and time frames is likely the best way to show them, that they are no longer up to the mark.
Just out of intrest has anybody asked him/her why they haven't retired yet?
If they are not doing the role they are paid to do, than a performance review with set goals and time frames is likely the best way to show them, that they are no longer up to the mark.
Just out of intrest has anybody asked him/her why they haven't retired yet?
Eric Mc said:
Aren't there age discrimination laws you need to be wary of?
If a person is underperforming, you would need to express any complaints about this, not in respect of their age, but in shortfalls in their expected performance.
Yes there are Eric, but I thought that was understood hence the earlier advice to approach from the point of view of acceptable performance.If a person is underperforming, you would need to express any complaints about this, not in respect of their age, but in shortfalls in their expected performance.
Another option might be to, from the same point of view, try to find a role that is acceptable to both the Company and the Employee, albeit at a lower salary.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
How are they performing against their appraisal?What specifically isn't being delivered from their role and responsibility?
Talk to him/her there could be outside of work issues you are unaware in which case it's a totally different issue and instead of exiting it would be how you as a company can best help, even if it's just being aware. But it could be reduced hours are needed or whatever.
What I always find about the oldies is they just keep on going getting the job done - annoyingly they will come in on deaths door instead of staying at home until recovered. None the less it's great to have a blend of ages and experiences.
Note possibly the year before last I employed a 62 year old lady over someone half her age - and that decision has really been a good call. I certainly do not want her leaving any time soon
We had a guy like this who we actually carried to a certain extent. The thing was he was very experienced very good at certain aspects of his role, flexible and reliable.
He was just no longer cut out for the 9-5 stuff or looking to develop his role.
We talked to him. He'd survived redundancies before and knew he'd probably not survive a big restructuring.
So we persuaded him to go part time, and becom a freelance. He was then a really reliable go to person when we were in a fix and for example needed short order holiday or sickness cover. Freed of the hassle of aspects of his old job he became a useful and valuable asset.
A few years later, he decided to leave, but we still used him now and then.
A happy conclusion. But it only came through dialogue.
He was just no longer cut out for the 9-5 stuff or looking to develop his role.
We talked to him. He'd survived redundancies before and knew he'd probably not survive a big restructuring.
So we persuaded him to go part time, and becom a freelance. He was then a really reliable go to person when we were in a fix and for example needed short order holiday or sickness cover. Freed of the hassle of aspects of his old job he became a useful and valuable asset.
A few years later, he decided to leave, but we still used him now and then.
A happy conclusion. But it only came through dialogue.
Tannedbaldhead]saac Hunt said:
We have an aged member of staff. They are in their late 60s and are not really giving good value for money.
clearly coasting and rarely will go the extra mile.quote]
Can you sack someone for that?
I work in construction where we have never recovered from the recession. One of the after effects is everyone is expected to work harder and longer and to do so for a lot less money... A LOT LESS MONEY....
Our operatives used to be in the office at 8.00 sharp to hand in paperwork, pick up materials and job specific tools and equipment, be available for chats with line managers and surveyors regarding ongoing jobs and issues and, once done, be on site of 9.00 sharp. They were given enough work to keep them busy till four assuming they worked steadily, completed paperwork and notes as they worked took a half hour for lunch. Once home they could switch off as office staff would assign and appoint visits for the next day.
Now they are in the office for 7.15am and on site at 8.00am. They are given enough work to last till 5.00 though their contracts say 8.00am till 4.00pm and that is assuming they push hard all day, skip note taking and paperwork then do it once they get home. Admin staff levels have been cut to the bone so operatives also have to answer emails providing work for the next few days and spend the best part of an evening sorting their workload by postcode, map referencing it and phoning tenants to appoint visits.
Guys in their 30s are knackered. Older staff are struggling. Some long servers have given up and are working as contracted looking managers in the eye and saying "what you going to do about it".
I'm a QS, not a performance manager. As I deal with the money and as the line management structure has been paired to the bone I'm now expected to deal with maintaining productivity. I get paid half what I did 10 years ago and haven't seen a performance related bonus since 2007 am 50 and don't have the mental energy to go ass kicking old guys who can wave contracts saying they work 8.00 till 4.00 with an hour's break and are required to take paperwork home on occasions where fluctuations in workload require extra effort.
When my boss asks me to go that extra mile pushing these old buggers I say "Afaid I can't," look him in the eye and say "what you going to do about it".
Coasting and not going the extra mile perhaps. But dismissable?
Spot on, well said.clearly coasting and rarely will go the extra mile.quote]
Can you sack someone for that?
I work in construction where we have never recovered from the recession. One of the after effects is everyone is expected to work harder and longer and to do so for a lot less money... A LOT LESS MONEY....
Our operatives used to be in the office at 8.00 sharp to hand in paperwork, pick up materials and job specific tools and equipment, be available for chats with line managers and surveyors regarding ongoing jobs and issues and, once done, be on site of 9.00 sharp. They were given enough work to keep them busy till four assuming they worked steadily, completed paperwork and notes as they worked took a half hour for lunch. Once home they could switch off as office staff would assign and appoint visits for the next day.
Now they are in the office for 7.15am and on site at 8.00am. They are given enough work to last till 5.00 though their contracts say 8.00am till 4.00pm and that is assuming they push hard all day, skip note taking and paperwork then do it once they get home. Admin staff levels have been cut to the bone so operatives also have to answer emails providing work for the next few days and spend the best part of an evening sorting their workload by postcode, map referencing it and phoning tenants to appoint visits.
Guys in their 30s are knackered. Older staff are struggling. Some long servers have given up and are working as contracted looking managers in the eye and saying "what you going to do about it".
I'm a QS, not a performance manager. As I deal with the money and as the line management structure has been paired to the bone I'm now expected to deal with maintaining productivity. I get paid half what I did 10 years ago and haven't seen a performance related bonus since 2007 am 50 and don't have the mental energy to go ass kicking old guys who can wave contracts saying they work 8.00 till 4.00 with an hour's break and are required to take paperwork home on occasions where fluctuations in workload require extra effort.
When my boss asks me to go that extra mile pushing these old buggers I say "Afaid I can't," look him in the eye and say "what you going to do about it".
Coasting and not going the extra mile perhaps. But dismissable?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It all depends how you approach it and communicate itIE. How you manage your performance and bonus system and communications with staff
If he is not giving good value for money and is reasonably well paid and is a decent grade then his performance is poor relative to his peers. You don't need b players. The good people in your business do not want to be around people who just turn up.
There are more factors at play but I am sure it can be done in most companies.
johnwilliams77 said:
It all depends how you approach it and communicate it. ... The good people in your business do not want to be around people who just turn up.
There are more factors at play but I am sure it can be done in most companies.
This bit, in spades. I've worked alongside old timers who are coasting, and it's not good for the rest of the team in my opinion. There are more factors at play but I am sure it can be done in most companies.
However, he's either not performing in which case manage him out, which also gives him a chance to improve, or he is doing the job well enough in which case you shouldn't really have a problem.
DanL said:
johnwilliams77 said:
However, he's either not performing in which case manage him out, which also gives him a chance to improve, or he is doing the job well enough in which case you shouldn't really have a problem.
This is the crux. Nothing wrong with coasting if you just get enough done to discharge your assigned duties within your assigned timelines whilst working within your set hours. Our old timers certainly aren't hungry go-getters younger workers are but they are but are solid, dependable workers who show up, do the job right, don't cause problems, are liked by clients, know their stuff and have a wealth of experience to share with greener members of staff.
Sure they aren't as productive and a bit inflexible as far as introducing new work practises and technology are concerned but in a rounded company it's not all about every member of staff going hell for leather to make the shareholders every last penny they can.
Tannedbaldhead said:
This is the crux. Nothing wrong with coasting if you just get enough done to discharge your assigned duties within your assigned timelines whilst working within your set hours.
Our old timers certainly aren't hungry go-getters younger workers are but they are but are solid, dependable workers who show up, do the job right, don't cause problems, are liked by clients, know their stuff and have a wealth of experience to share with greener members of staff.
Sure they aren't as productive and a bit inflexible as far as introducing new work practises and technology are concerned but in a rounded company it's not all about every member of staff going hell for leather to make the shareholders every last penny they can.
Hold your horses! No one said all old folk in an office are duffers, sack em all!Our old timers certainly aren't hungry go-getters younger workers are but they are but are solid, dependable workers who show up, do the job right, don't cause problems, are liked by clients, know their stuff and have a wealth of experience to share with greener members of staff.
Sure they aren't as productive and a bit inflexible as far as introducing new work practises and technology are concerned but in a rounded company it's not all about every member of staff going hell for leather to make the shareholders every last penny they can.
He said "he is not good value for money". I agree with what you're saying though, balance, mentoring is important.
It is also important to not have people who are poor value for money / potentially negatively impacting the morale.
johnwilliams77 said:
It is also important to not have people who are poor value for money / potentially negatively impacting the morale.
Correct, but how is the employee bad value for money? Are they being overpaid, or is it that someone in their mid-20's would do the same job for less, or are they just not performing to the required standard? The options to address poor VFM due to ill advised salary increases in previous years are likely to be:- give 0% pay rise until the salary is in line with what you'd like to pay.
- performance management to bring employee into line with what's expected for the money.
- make the role redundant, and create a new role that's bits of several other roles (so it's different from the role no longer required) and hire for that at a rate you're happier paying.
Have you actually asked him what his plans are? Where does he see himself in five years? Bearing in mind his age, does he (or his partner) have any health issues? Would he like to go part time and cut down on the hours he works?
If he says all the things you don't want to hear to these Q's, then how would he feel if you asked him to go part time, say two/three days a week?
You may well find that he'd welcome the chat and the chance to slow down without finishing completely.
I know many older people who resent having to retire and losing their sense of worth, it's amazing how useless you can feel if work's finished. They have little to look forward to and feel they don't contribute.
My advice would be to have a formal proper discussion with him and ask him what HE wants then pick up on the answers he gives you and take it from there,.
If he says all the things you don't want to hear to these Q's, then how would he feel if you asked him to go part time, say two/three days a week?
You may well find that he'd welcome the chat and the chance to slow down without finishing completely.
I know many older people who resent having to retire and losing their sense of worth, it's amazing how useless you can feel if work's finished. They have little to look forward to and feel they don't contribute.
My advice would be to have a formal proper discussion with him and ask him what HE wants then pick up on the answers he gives you and take it from there,.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You have my sympathies. Encouraging someone to leave a business when they don't want to go is really, really hard. As a small business owner I fully appreciate that carrying someone is bad for business and bad for the rest of the team - and I also appreciate the value that more experienced people bring to a business.My advice is to take some proper HR advice, possibly specialist legal employment advice. The reason being that being found guilty of wrongful dismissal is subject to unlimited compensation if done on grounds of discrimination.
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