Does Hard Work still get you promoted in a large company?
Discussion
I've worked in a large, multi-national company for nearly ten years now and everything I've done has been a sideways step rather than an upwards one. I can't complain too much as I got a 4% rise this year and have been getting similar every year and for what i do I'm easily one of the better paid here.
I'm widely regarded throughout the building as an expert in my field and people actively seek out my advice and I'm one fo the top performing people at my work. Yet every job in the company is completely based on Interview performance rather than any history or ability. Is it like this in every large company? Does hard work, knowledge and performing really not get you anywhere these days or is it a big business thing?
I'm widely regarded throughout the building as an expert in my field and people actively seek out my advice and I'm one fo the top performing people at my work. Yet every job in the company is completely based on Interview performance rather than any history or ability. Is it like this in every large company? Does hard work, knowledge and performing really not get you anywhere these days or is it a big business thing?
I dont see that as a bad thing, what I see the real problem as is the expectation that if you work hard you'll get promoted. It's a fallacy and leads to people who've been around a while and reasonably good at their jobs be taken out of what they're actually good at and promoted way beyond their capabilities.
There's nothing wrong with saying you're a really good widget analyst and smashing that every day/week/month
When career aspirations are brought in, people get sold something that's now less likely to happen - that they'll be able to have more responsibility. Over the last 10 years, all the jobs I've had are jobs I've done before.
Back in the early 00's, companies would take on people if they had 80% of the skills/experience. You'd learn the other 20% from them. Now, many companies want you to haev done what they're recruiting for already for 5+ years. They dont take as many risks and there's less money for it. So what tends to happen is rather than promote people from within, roles are fllled from outside, by people who've done that job 10 times over
The other aspect to consider if whether hard work alone makes you more capable, you can niche yourself into a corner sometimes
There's nothing wrong with saying you're a really good widget analyst and smashing that every day/week/month
When career aspirations are brought in, people get sold something that's now less likely to happen - that they'll be able to have more responsibility. Over the last 10 years, all the jobs I've had are jobs I've done before.
Back in the early 00's, companies would take on people if they had 80% of the skills/experience. You'd learn the other 20% from them. Now, many companies want you to haev done what they're recruiting for already for 5+ years. They dont take as many risks and there's less money for it. So what tends to happen is rather than promote people from within, roles are fllled from outside, by people who've done that job 10 times over
The other aspect to consider if whether hard work alone makes you more capable, you can niche yourself into a corner sometimes
When I was freelance I worked across many industries public and private sector, primarily larger businesses.
As a general rule the private sectors recognised hard working employees. A couple in particular had internal programmes whereby rising talent was spotted and nurtured. This resulted in several comparatively younger staff scaling management ladders very, very rapidly. To them qualifications were secondary, it was skill and ability in the job. If they wanted you to have an MBA you could do that at some point but it was not something that got you in.
Generally public sector was based on people pushing for reviews, going to internal positions and like you say, a lot of sideways movement to gain experience and show an interest in the organisation.
Most significant factor I've always found is your line manager, if they are the right person they will be the one pushing you to move onwards and upwards.
As a general rule the private sectors recognised hard working employees. A couple in particular had internal programmes whereby rising talent was spotted and nurtured. This resulted in several comparatively younger staff scaling management ladders very, very rapidly. To them qualifications were secondary, it was skill and ability in the job. If they wanted you to have an MBA you could do that at some point but it was not something that got you in.
Generally public sector was based on people pushing for reviews, going to internal positions and like you say, a lot of sideways movement to gain experience and show an interest in the organisation.
Most significant factor I've always found is your line manager, if they are the right person they will be the one pushing you to move onwards and upwards.
CaptainSlow said:
The best way to do it is to follow others up the ranks.
People taking on new roles usually want to build a trusted team around them, if you've demonstrated your ability in the past you'll be the obvious choice for them.
Sadly it rarely works like that. Most departments are so big, with sometimes hundreds of staff that there's little to no chance of the 'coattails' approach. Everything si done by proper process, application and interview.People taking on new roles usually want to build a trusted team around them, if you've demonstrated your ability in the past you'll be the obvious choice for them.
MissChief said:
Sadly it rarely works like that. Most departments are so big, with sometimes hundreds of staff that there's little to no chance of the 'coattails' approach. Everything si done by proper process, application and interview.
Sounds very much like some of the Japanese companies I worked with. By contrast American businesses were very much how well you performed and got on with senior management on a personal level. Not saying people who inappropriately promoted but you were only considered if your were able to fit in with the culture.Where I am now (public sector education) is again very different. However, effort is rewarded and if you show ability in an area (in my case not even really my actual job) opportunities are presented. However, I did make it clear at interview and subsequent reviews that I get bored quickly and need new challenges all the time.
Time to ask for a review and spell out to your line manager (and theirs!!) that you can give more.
Not based on the large corporates I have worked at.
Based on my experiences promotions have been given due to:
Nepotism
Blow jobs and other sexual favours
Brown Nosing
Being great at self-promotion, how good you do your job being totally irrelevant
Being a complete window licking moron
Those who play the politics game.
As my grandad once told me Work Smart Never Hard.
Based on my experiences promotions have been given due to:
Nepotism
Blow jobs and other sexual favours
Brown Nosing
Being great at self-promotion, how good you do your job being totally irrelevant
Being a complete window licking moron
Those who play the politics game.
As my grandad once told me Work Smart Never Hard.
The best way to move up is to move company every 3-4 years. Making a leap up in Grade each time. Usefully when you move you can emphasise those aspects of your CV which would place you as more senior. Working your way up in one company seldom works and often you'll be missing out constantly on more senior roles because they're filled with external candidates.
The other thing that helps is bits of paper, for certain roles you'll need an MBA or a suitable qualification to be considered for a senior role no matter how hard you work.
Oh and managers manage. They don't 'do'. It's a different skillset, again being technically very competant and productive won't necessarily be any use at all in getting promoted or being a senior manager.
The other thing that helps is bits of paper, for certain roles you'll need an MBA or a suitable qualification to be considered for a senior role no matter how hard you work.
Oh and managers manage. They don't 'do'. It's a different skillset, again being technically very competant and productive won't necessarily be any use at all in getting promoted or being a senior manager.
Hard work in itself isn't enough. You've got to achieve something and perform over and above the norm. Also, what is your definition of promotion? If promotion is a move to a more responsible/team lead/manager/technical expert etc role then it is not necessarily fitting to the individual. This is why career discussions where you can discuss with your line what you want to do and whether that matches with the organisation are important. Lastly, you also have to market yourself. You can work as hard as you like but if you don't make it at least a little bit known that you want something then others won't know, or worse still, they will 'promote' you into a role you don't want.
MissChief said:
I'm widely regarded throughout the building as an expert in my field and people actively seek out my advice and I'm one fo the top performing people at my work.
been there - could it be your considered too useful to promote. I would also make it crystal clear to your boss that you are looking for a promotion to job X in Y months/years time. Have you told anyone of your wants/expectations as they might not be mind readers.
That said, sometimes in big companies, no amount of hard work is recognised and there can be a culture of "bring in an external candidate" - if this is the case then do as others say and be the external candidate somewhere else.
Bob
Hard work rarely pays off.
Move between companies to get payrises of 10% plus.
If youre an a,asing roadsweeper they will want you sweeping roads. If you sell loads of dfs sofas they will want you selling.
Very rarely will a company offer a 10% plus payrise but moving jobs it is often a given.
Move between companies to get payrises of 10% plus.
If youre an a,asing roadsweeper they will want you sweeping roads. If you sell loads of dfs sofas they will want you selling.
Very rarely will a company offer a 10% plus payrise but moving jobs it is often a given.
I've worked in a large, no, massive, global corporation before. I would *never* take a role in such a company again. If your face fitted (and there were a select few whose did), then you were on a fast track. However, if you were good, even very good, at your job but someone near the top decided, and let it be known, that you weren't going anywhere further, then you weren't. Utterly hideous organisation to work in.
MissChief said:
I've worked in a large, multi-national company for nearly ten years now and everything I've done has been a sideways step rather than an upwards one. I can't complain too much as I got a 4% rise this year and have been getting similar every year and for what i do I'm easily one of the better paid here.
I'm widely regarded throughout the building as an expert in my field and people actively seek out my advice and I'm one fo the top performing people at my work. Yet every job in the company is completely based on Interview performance rather than any history or ability. Is it like this in every large company? Does hard work, knowledge and performing really not get you anywhere these days or is it a big business thing?
I find being mates with the right person or talking bullsI'm widely regarded throughout the building as an expert in my field and people actively seek out my advice and I'm one fo the top performing people at my work. Yet every job in the company is completely based on Interview performance rather than any history or ability. Is it like this in every large company? Does hard work, knowledge and performing really not get you anywhere these days or is it a big business thing?
t people want to hear gets you up the ladder, rather than being skilful etc.After all if you say - if I get this job, I'd change x y and z as they are stupid formats / ideas and the person who brought in x y z is probs interviewing you. A common issue with most mid sized or bigger companies
Timmy40 said:
The best way to move up is to move company every 3-4 years. Making a leap up in Grade each time. Usefully when you move you can emphasise those aspects of your CV which would place you as more senior. Working your way up in one company seldom works and often you'll be missing out constantly on more senior roles because they're filled with external candidates.
The other thing that helps is bits of paper, for certain roles you'll need an MBA or a suitable qualification to be considered for a senior role no matter how hard you work.
Oh and managers manage. They don't 'do'. It's a different skillset, again being technically very competant and productive won't necessarily be any use at all in getting promoted or being a senior manager.
Great post.The other thing that helps is bits of paper, for certain roles you'll need an MBA or a suitable qualification to be considered for a senior role no matter how hard you work.
Oh and managers manage. They don't 'do'. It's a different skillset, again being technically very competant and productive won't necessarily be any use at all in getting promoted or being a senior manager.
Essentially, if you're truly ambitious to lead others, then move every 3 years to a higher role and gain new insights, experiences, networks and skills.
It can be done in the same organisation, but usually takes longer and you may reach your level of incompetence (and thus hurt the organisation) earlier.
But it's all about your appetite for risk; sitting pretty in the same organisation clearly is less risky, thus it brings less reward.
A few thoughts here;
1.
I worked for several major companies and early in my career I was given a sound piece of advice from my then Director;
"The most damaging thing to your chances of progression are an unsubstantiated comment"
He went on to say that in the game of Corporate Politics when making an appointment of course you go through the "correct procedure" of advertising, interview, assessment, appraisal etc etc tick all the HR boxes but use them to justify your decision.
However, also when you get the internal applications in go and have a chat with your peer who they currently ultimately report to and you'll get some good feedback and if you get no feedback then don't touch them with a barge pole.
2.
It may be that those you ultimately report to either aren't aware of you or don't rate you so perhaps try to raise your profile, being quietly efficient often isn't enough for career progression!
Everyone wants the "quietly efficient" to work for them as they're solid and stable but they're never going to set the world on fire, it sounds from your post as though this might be you which is why you keep getting sideways moves and reasonable increments.
3.
You're crap in interviews!
If you can as part of your "development plan" in preparation for your future roles get on more HR courses around "people development" and "recruitment" and use them as the opportunity to really look at how your behaviours match up to what HR see as right !
1.
I worked for several major companies and early in my career I was given a sound piece of advice from my then Director;
"The most damaging thing to your chances of progression are an unsubstantiated comment"
He went on to say that in the game of Corporate Politics when making an appointment of course you go through the "correct procedure" of advertising, interview, assessment, appraisal etc etc tick all the HR boxes but use them to justify your decision.
However, also when you get the internal applications in go and have a chat with your peer who they currently ultimately report to and you'll get some good feedback and if you get no feedback then don't touch them with a barge pole.
2.
It may be that those you ultimately report to either aren't aware of you or don't rate you so perhaps try to raise your profile, being quietly efficient often isn't enough for career progression!
Everyone wants the "quietly efficient" to work for them as they're solid and stable but they're never going to set the world on fire, it sounds from your post as though this might be you which is why you keep getting sideways moves and reasonable increments.
3.
You're crap in interviews!
If you can as part of your "development plan" in preparation for your future roles get on more HR courses around "people development" and "recruitment" and use them as the opportunity to really look at how your behaviours match up to what HR see as right !
Edited by Marcellus on Friday 15th July 09:55
This is just my experience and opinion but as others have said hard work isn't enough. Being a hard working dependable team player can often go against you as managers don't want to lose the good people and will block promotions.
In large companies it is easy to get lost in the mess of it all. In a small company everyone knows who does what, but that gets lost in large companies and it is easy for others to take credit for your work etc.
I have worked for v small companies (c. 25 staff) and the 26th & 17th largest companies in the world. Only ever got promotions int he small companies.
The place I work at the minutes is a joke. It seems to get promoted you have to cock something up. Someone got a huge promotion after losing a £3M / year account because of their direct incompetence.
In large companies it is easy to get lost in the mess of it all. In a small company everyone knows who does what, but that gets lost in large companies and it is easy for others to take credit for your work etc.
I have worked for v small companies (c. 25 staff) and the 26th & 17th largest companies in the world. Only ever got promotions int he small companies.
The place I work at the minutes is a joke. It seems to get promoted you have to cock something up. Someone got a huge promotion after losing a £3M / year account because of their direct incompetence.
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