Cost of training courses when leaving a company
Discussion
I did ask before but had the thread deleted before I had the chance to get much in the way of input (only 1 reply) - in case it was found - as I hadn't had handed my notice in. I have now so it doesn't matter.
Basically I started in late February at a company.
I worked in Telephony before. This is Wireless. My new role is Telephony again.
They trained me up (at their stipulation, I didn't ask to go) and I attended 3 training courses. These were vendor specific to Wireless.
My contract states that
"within 12 months of a training course, if the employee leaves, then the 100% of the costs of the courses can be deducted from the final salary. Between 12 months and 18 months it's 50%. After 18 months is nothing".
I can get exact wording later if needed.
As I've handed my notice in they have said I am liable for the costs of the training - totals over £6000 - which I don't have.
Considering I earn less than half that per month, it won't really work!
We've had all very amicable discussions so far regarding my leaving, they asked why, what they could do differently etc.
I've said I will continue my duties to a high level of professionalism and help out on projects until the end of my notice period.
Not that it really matters much, but my reasons for leaving are
- Difficulty learning some of the products
- Lack of actual "stuff" for me to do
- Inability to regularly work from home
- Lots of travel upcoming (European so lots of time overseas) which isn't something I can either deal with or something I was aware would be required
My questions is, what is the process here, as I've never been involved in this thing before.
IF they were to demand I cover the costs, is this reasonably enforceable?
I am hoping that we just walk away and part company without anything owing, as it makes no sense for me to stay out of guilt, likewise paying £20 per month or whatever would not benefit my current company.
I'm just trying to prepare myself as it would be very uncomfortable if I had to repay it.
Basically I started in late February at a company.
I worked in Telephony before. This is Wireless. My new role is Telephony again.
They trained me up (at their stipulation, I didn't ask to go) and I attended 3 training courses. These were vendor specific to Wireless.
My contract states that
"within 12 months of a training course, if the employee leaves, then the 100% of the costs of the courses can be deducted from the final salary. Between 12 months and 18 months it's 50%. After 18 months is nothing".
I can get exact wording later if needed.
As I've handed my notice in they have said I am liable for the costs of the training - totals over £6000 - which I don't have.
Considering I earn less than half that per month, it won't really work!
We've had all very amicable discussions so far regarding my leaving, they asked why, what they could do differently etc.
I've said I will continue my duties to a high level of professionalism and help out on projects until the end of my notice period.
Not that it really matters much, but my reasons for leaving are
- Difficulty learning some of the products
- Lack of actual "stuff" for me to do
- Inability to regularly work from home
- Lots of travel upcoming (European so lots of time overseas) which isn't something I can either deal with or something I was aware would be required
My questions is, what is the process here, as I've never been involved in this thing before.
IF they were to demand I cover the costs, is this reasonably enforceable?
I am hoping that we just walk away and part company without anything owing, as it makes no sense for me to stay out of guilt, likewise paying £20 per month or whatever would not benefit my current company.
I'm just trying to prepare myself as it would be very uncomfortable if I had to repay it.
xjay1337 said:
1) It was part of my contract of employment so I had to sign it.
2) I believe everyone has similar contract.
3) I'm not sure.
I'd do some research on number 3. As if anyone has got away with it in the past, you have a precedent, I believe? Worked for someone leaving at my spot many years ago.2) I believe everyone has similar contract.
3) I'm not sure.
I have to admit I'm not aware with anyone leaving, or certainly having been on a course and then left shortly afterwards.
I didn't join to get some courses and leave. My new role isn't even related to what I'm doing, so it's of no benefit to me!
I was supposed to be on a training course this week but I ensured I handed my notice in ahead of time as I didn't want to take the piss!
Du1point8 said:
Why cant you do the minimum 12 months to keep them happy?
What is so bad that you cant sit back for that period of time?
I've explained my reasons for leaving. Unfortunately it does not benefit them nor me to "force" me to stay. I would need to stay for 18 months after my last training course to not have any fees to pay :-(What is so bad that you cant sit back for that period of time?
I didn't join to get some courses and leave. My new role isn't even related to what I'm doing, so it's of no benefit to me!
I was supposed to be on a training course this week but I ensured I handed my notice in ahead of time as I didn't want to take the piss!
xjay1337 said:
I have to admit I'm not aware with anyone leaving, or certainly having been on a course and then left shortly afterwards.
I didn't join to get some courses and leave. My new role isn't even related to what I'm doing, so it's of no benefit to me!
I was supposed to be on a training course this week but I ensured I handed my notice in ahead of time as I didn't want to take the piss!
I know what you are saying but the company have spent a lot of money on you and it shows and they want it back it you cant produce then they need to work it outDu1point8 said:
Why cant you do the minimum 12 months to keep them happy?
What is so bad that you cant sit back for that period of time?
I've explained my reasons for leaving. Unfortunately it does not benefit them nor me to "force" me to stay. I would need to stay for 18 months after my last training course to not have any fees to pay :-(What is so bad that you cant sit back for that period of time?
I didn't join to get some courses and leave. My new role isn't even related to what I'm doing, so it's of no benefit to me!
I was supposed to be on a training course this week but I ensured I handed my notice in ahead of time as I didn't want to take the piss!
Part of that is making sure you have not been trained up then joining a rival.
Whilst it might be lawful, I don't see as being reasonable for them to expect you to hand back 2 months wages to pay for courses they elected to send you on. Your options are relatively simple:.
1. Discuss this with a senior manager at the company and explain that a) you didn't request the training, and b) will not benefit from it once you leave.
Reading this briefly- https://www.moonbeever.com/employment-articles/rep... The key point, as I understand it, is that these clauses cannot be a penalty. In practice if an employee is sent on training courses each year, and so could always be liable for a debt of £6,000, then that is a huge disincentive for an employee to leave. So in doing so, that clause would seem to be a penalty (IANAL).
If an employer pays for a high value, transferable qualification, which the employee can take with them (i.e. MBA, MSc, Prince2 etc etc) then I would expect the costs to be at least partially covered by the employee.
2. Leave, keep quiet and hope they don't deduct anything.... or,
3. You could just walk out, but that opens up a whole other world of s
t on top of the training costs which, if you leave them high and dry, they will aggressively pursue.
1. Discuss this with a senior manager at the company and explain that a) you didn't request the training, and b) will not benefit from it once you leave.
Reading this briefly- https://www.moonbeever.com/employment-articles/rep... The key point, as I understand it, is that these clauses cannot be a penalty. In practice if an employee is sent on training courses each year, and so could always be liable for a debt of £6,000, then that is a huge disincentive for an employee to leave. So in doing so, that clause would seem to be a penalty (IANAL).
If an employer pays for a high value, transferable qualification, which the employee can take with them (i.e. MBA, MSc, Prince2 etc etc) then I would expect the costs to be at least partially covered by the employee.
2. Leave, keep quiet and hope they don't deduct anything.... or,
3. You could just walk out, but that opens up a whole other world of s
t on top of the training costs which, if you leave them high and dry, they will aggressively pursue.Du1point8 said:
I know what you are saying but the company have spent a lot of money on you and it shows and they want it back it you cant produce then they need to work it out
Part of that is making sure you have not been trained up then joining a rival.
I do genuinely understand that. It probably doesn't matter to them but the qualifications are of absolutely no use for my new roles and my core skills are totally different.Part of that is making sure you have not been trained up then joining a rival.
I've not even passed the exams the courses were for!
It just seems a strong clause to liable for courses for up to 18 months.
StuTheGrouch said:
Whilst it might be lawful, I don't see as being reasonable for them to expect you to hand back 2 months wages to pay for courses they elected to send you on. Your options are relatively simple:.
1. Discuss this with a senior manager at the company and explain that a) you didn't request the training, and b) will not benefit from it once you leave.
Reading this briefly- https://www.moonbeever.com/employment-articles/rep... The key point, as I understand it, is that these clauses cannot be a penalty. In practice if an employee is sent on training courses each year, and so could always be liable for a debt of £6,000, then that is a huge disincentive for an employee to leave. So in doing so, that clause would seem to be a penalty (IANAL).
If an employer pays for a high value, transferable qualification, which the employee can take with them (i.e. MBA, MSc, Prince2 etc etc) then I would expect the costs to be at least partially covered by the employee.
2. Leave, keep quiet and hope they don't deduct anything.... or,
3. You could just walk out, but that opens up a whole other world of st on top of the training costs which, if you leave them high and dry, they will aggressively pursue.
Thanks Stu.1. Discuss this with a senior manager at the company and explain that a) you didn't request the training, and b) will not benefit from it once you leave.
Reading this briefly- https://www.moonbeever.com/employment-articles/rep... The key point, as I understand it, is that these clauses cannot be a penalty. In practice if an employee is sent on training courses each year, and so could always be liable for a debt of £6,000, then that is a huge disincentive for an employee to leave. So in doing so, that clause would seem to be a penalty (IANAL).
If an employer pays for a high value, transferable qualification, which the employee can take with them (i.e. MBA, MSc, Prince2 etc etc) then I would expect the costs to be at least partially covered by the employee.
2. Leave, keep quiet and hope they don't deduct anything.... or,
3. You could just walk out, but that opens up a whole other world of s
t on top of the training costs which, if you leave them high and dry, they will aggressively pursue.The courses are for Aruba wi-fi. I focus on telephony products. I wouldn't say high value like a Price2 / Msc.
My new role is nothing to do with Wireless!
I have tried to be nice, I've offered to assist with a lot of project work (wireless surveying) that is getting done at the end of the month. I could just walk out but don't think that does anyone any favours and I want to make it as pain free as possible in an ideal world...
We have the same rule at our place. Basically HR keep a record of all "loans" including training loans. When they get a leavers form they check amounts outstanding and notify Finance.
1. Payroll deduct the maximum allowable from net salary (after complying with minimum wage regs)
2. sales ledger issue an invoice for the balance.
3. Credit control pursue (depending on the amount owing)
4. In the past we've taken people to Court up to and including CCJs
It depends on the amount owed and the reason for the debt. So an overpayment of salary we might write off. But if somebody's had a car loan of £10k and tries to take te Michael we tend to pursue for full recovery.
1. Payroll deduct the maximum allowable from net salary (after complying with minimum wage regs)
2. sales ledger issue an invoice for the balance.
3. Credit control pursue (depending on the amount owing)
4. In the past we've taken people to Court up to and including CCJs
It depends on the amount owed and the reason for the debt. So an overpayment of salary we might write off. But if somebody's had a car loan of £10k and tries to take te Michael we tend to pursue for full recovery.
eliot said:
Are you sure the courses actually cost £6k? Many vendor courses are FOC if you are a partner of the vendor in question.
I haven't seen a PO but I've seen a list of the courses and their retail price.I believe the training was required in order to fufill a vender partner accreditation level in regards to the number of certified engineers.
It has really stressed me out.
joestifff said:
xjay1337 said:
1) It was part of my contract of employment so I had to sign it.
2) I believe everyone has similar contract.
3) I'm not sure.
I'd do some research on number 3. As if anyone has got away with it in the past, you have a precedent, I believe? ...2) I believe everyone has similar contract.
3) I'm not sure.
The fact that an employer may have chosen not to enforce such a clause on one occasion does not preclude it from enforcing the clause on another occasion.
The clause is probably enforceable, subject to an argument that it operates as an indirect restraint on employee competition. In future, bear in mind that a contract is to be taken seriously. A promise is a promise. Do not enter into an obligation that you would struggle to perform.
The clause is not inherently unfair (unless you take the view that capitalist employment structures are all inherently unfair). The employer incurred cost in sending the employee to be trained. It did so with a view to having the services of a trained employee for a while. If the employee leaves soon after being trained, the employer gets little value for its investment in training.
Note also, by the way, that a contract need not be signed in order to be enforceable. Indeed, contracts for most things need not be written at all (land contracts and contracts of guarantee are too exceptions). Statutory employment law requites a minimal statement of employment terms. In practice, most employers work on written contracts of employment.
OP, the theme of your posts above comes across as rather "me, me, me". May I ask if you were born in the 1990s?
The employment contract is a two way bargain. The nature of employment in a capitalist economy is such that the bargain tends to favour the employer. But all bargains are two way, and thinking about a contract purely in terms of whether it benefits you alone is not a sensible idea.
The employment contract is a two way bargain. The nature of employment in a capitalist economy is such that the bargain tends to favour the employer. But all bargains are two way, and thinking about a contract purely in terms of whether it benefits you alone is not a sensible idea.
I do appreciate the company have invested in me via training, and I feel awful about having handed my notice in - a genuine sense of guilt, but the role is simply not to my liking. When I started I had no intentions of leaving, certainly I was not joining to be given training and then quit after. (which is of not of use to me unless I work with this one specific product). The fact I handed my notice in before a course had started shows that?
I have given it a fair chance, I've been there just over 3 months. Over that time, I have gotten more and more unhappy over time at the expense of my mental health and it's simply making me miserable. Having daily anxiety attacks, inability to sleep due to worrying about being sent away for weeks on end. If putting my own mental health first counts as me-me-me then guilty as charged I'm afraid.
If my current company look to reclaim these costs then I will have to cross that bridge at the time. I am simply trying to prepare myself with information or experience from others who have gone through this situation.
I have given it a fair chance, I've been there just over 3 months. Over that time, I have gotten more and more unhappy over time at the expense of my mental health and it's simply making me miserable. Having daily anxiety attacks, inability to sleep due to worrying about being sent away for weeks on end. If putting my own mental health first counts as me-me-me then guilty as charged I'm afraid.
If my current company look to reclaim these costs then I will have to cross that bridge at the time. I am simply trying to prepare myself with information or experience from others who have gone through this situation.
My observation of the process at my previous employer:
1. Partial final salary deduction agreed, along with a monthly payment plan.
2. (Former) employee sends regular payments for the first 3 or 4 months with no need to prompt.
3. Payments become less regular, credit control have to keep chasing.
4. After 7 or 8 months payments stop completely, credit control ignored.
5. Discussion in office about outstanding balance (about £2k), do we keep chasing, go to court or write off? Nothing decided.
6. About 6 months later no progress, the debt is written off.
OP, personally I'd try to negotiate a slightly reduced figure, and agree a reasonable payment schedule. Whether you keep up the payment schedule is up to you (and also how strictly the company enforces it)
1. Partial final salary deduction agreed, along with a monthly payment plan.
2. (Former) employee sends regular payments for the first 3 or 4 months with no need to prompt.
3. Payments become less regular, credit control have to keep chasing.
4. After 7 or 8 months payments stop completely, credit control ignored.
5. Discussion in office about outstanding balance (about £2k), do we keep chasing, go to court or write off? Nothing decided.
6. About 6 months later no progress, the debt is written off.
OP, personally I'd try to negotiate a slightly reduced figure, and agree a reasonable payment schedule. Whether you keep up the payment schedule is up to you (and also how strictly the company enforces it)
Have you talked extensively to your managers about your problems at the workplace? Is not having much to do really that stressful? Could you ask to move sideways within the business? If the employer thinks that you have skills, it might wish to re deploy you and keep the benefit of those skills.
If you are determined to leave, then as suggested above, try to negotiate time to pay the sum due. If you are going to a new job in a business that does not compete against your current employer, then it might (I said might) agree to waive all or part of the training cost.
If you are determined to leave, then as suggested above, try to negotiate time to pay the sum due. If you are going to a new job in a business that does not compete against your current employer, then it might (I said might) agree to waive all or part of the training cost.
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