How is this not age discrimination?
Discussion
At 43 I'm pondering a change of direction. Looks like plenty of interesting things to do in the RAF and training provided too. However, looking at some roles that I could be interested in, it's quickly obvious that I'm on a hiding to nothing.
Applicants must be ...
Cyberspace Communication Specialist - 16 – 35 years old
Driver - 17 – 29 years old
Air Operations (Control) Officer - 17.5 – 40 (Must attest before 41st birthday)
Etc.
I thought this kind of thing was illegal these days.
Applicants must be ...
Cyberspace Communication Specialist - 16 – 35 years old
Driver - 17 – 29 years old
Air Operations (Control) Officer - 17.5 – 40 (Must attest before 41st birthday)
Etc.
I thought this kind of thing was illegal these days.
It appears that the age discrimination legislation has a specific exemption for the armed forces.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Seems a bit silly. My fitness level exceeds that specified for the 17-29 age group (the toughest level) in the activities described and my BMI is bang-on in the middle of the band suggested. I'm pretty sure people who are already in the force don't suddenly become unfit for purpose on the day they wake up at an age exceeding the maximum entry age for their role!
Alex Z said:
It appears that the age discrimination legislation has a specific exemption for the armed forces.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Its funny how governments tell us that we can't judge people on age, but can make a case that sometimes it's appropriate to judge on age.https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Age discrimination is alive and well in the private sector, they're just not as open about it.
Wait until you try changing jobs in your late 50's...
Your CV will be greeted with much enthusiasm and a telephone interview (with good feedback) will follow.
That then results in a face to face interview, which subsequently just falls flat...
Wait until you try changing jobs in your late 50's...
Your CV will be greeted with much enthusiasm and a telephone interview (with good feedback) will follow.
That then results in a face to face interview, which subsequently just falls flat...
MitchT said:
Seems a bit silly. My fitness level exceeds that specified for the 17-29 age group (the toughest level) in the activities described and my BMI is bang-on in the middle of the band suggested. I'm pretty sure people who are already in the force don't suddenly become unfit for purpose on the day they wake up at an age exceeding the maximum entry age for their role!
the MOD said:
The rationale for the exemption is that Armed Forces personnel need to be combat effective in order to meet a worldwide liability to deploy. Although, in itself, an individual’s age might not be the chief determinant of his or her effectiveness at a particular moment in time, it is a crucial factor in overall manpower planning in the Armed Forces. Maintaining the optimum balance of age and experience in the Armed Forces is fundamental to operational effectiveness. For this reason the Armed Forces have age-related policies that require personnel to leave after a certain number of years to ensure that there is a constant movement through the “promotion pyramid”, otherwise career advancement would become static.
This would be unacceptable as, compared to civilians, Service personnel are unable to move as freely in and out of the labour market. Maintaining the balance of age and experience is fundamental to operational capability, and the terms of employment for Service personnel are structured accordingly. This system, which needs to operate without legal interference, is clear, policy driven and has been accepted by Her Majesty’s Treasury/Cabinet Office as lying at the heart of the Armed Forces’ workforce strategy.
This would be unacceptable as, compared to civilians, Service personnel are unable to move as freely in and out of the labour market. Maintaining the balance of age and experience is fundamental to operational capability, and the terms of employment for Service personnel are structured accordingly. This system, which needs to operate without legal interference, is clear, policy driven and has been accepted by Her Majesty’s Treasury/Cabinet Office as lying at the heart of the Armed Forces’ workforce strategy.
TonyRPH said:
Age discrimination is alive and well in the private sector, they're just not as open about it.
In the private sector they just ignore your application... or tell you you're overqualified... if you're lucky enough to get a response at all!TonyRPH said:
Wait until you try changing jobs in your late 50's...
Your CV will be greeted with much enthusiasm and a telephone interview (with good feedback) will follow.
That then results in a face to face interview, which subsequently just falls flat...
You actually managed to get an interview! That's one up on me!!Your CV will be greeted with much enthusiasm and a telephone interview (with good feedback) will follow.
That then results in a face to face interview, which subsequently just falls flat...
MitchT said:
At 43 I'm pondering a change of direction. Looks like plenty of interesting things to do in the RAF
It is a great job but you wouldn't enjoy joining at 43 (even if they'd let you) IMHO. You'd be a lowly recruit with the majority of your colleagues aged under 23 - it's a different world... Many of my juniors are under 20 and I've no idea what they are talking about half the time!
Could you really handle being told to sweep the floor, empty the bins or re-polish your shoes (for example) by an NCO who is 20+ years your junior?!
DuraAce said:
MitchT said:
At 43 I'm pondering a change of direction. Looks like plenty of interesting things to do in the RAF
It is a great job but you wouldn't enjoy joining at 43 (even if they'd let you) IMHO. You'd be a lowly recruit with the majority of your colleagues aged under 23 - it's a different world... Many of my juniors are under 20 and I've no idea what they are talking about half the time!
Could you really handle being told to sweep the floor, empty the bins or re-polish your shoes (for example) by an NCO who is 20+ years your junior?!
As well as your day job you will be expected to do a whole bunch of other menial tasks.
That's fine if you're fresh out of school. If you're in your 40's you're probably quite capable of getting your s
t together. Could you take a 25 year old telling you that you're doing it wrong?Say recruitment takes a year you’re now 44.
Officer training (one of the options you mentioned) takes 9 months with no resits you’re about to turn 45 and you’re residential at cranwell wife and kids? Will be a struggle.
Then to RAF Shawbury for air traffic training which if I remember correctly is close to 2 years training. So you’ll be 47 before you start your first unit. (Family can join you at Shawbury on the married patch if you have one) it is not an easy course and I know a few people who have failed some elements or all and one who is currently trying to get off the course.
You then move to your first unit which is wherever they want to send you. They ask for 3 preferences you want to go to and 3 you don’t. For most of my course they ended up with one from the don’t section and I think 2 of us got our first choice.
Do 3 years and move again at the age of 50 when most are thinking of retiring from the service.
And as above on your training most of the socialising happens whilst out nightclubbing staying as a group at weekends and so on if you don’t I can imagine it being a very lonely course.
Officer training (one of the options you mentioned) takes 9 months with no resits you’re about to turn 45 and you’re residential at cranwell wife and kids? Will be a struggle.
Then to RAF Shawbury for air traffic training which if I remember correctly is close to 2 years training. So you’ll be 47 before you start your first unit. (Family can join you at Shawbury on the married patch if you have one) it is not an easy course and I know a few people who have failed some elements or all and one who is currently trying to get off the course.
You then move to your first unit which is wherever they want to send you. They ask for 3 preferences you want to go to and 3 you don’t. For most of my course they ended up with one from the don’t section and I think 2 of us got our first choice.
Do 3 years and move again at the age of 50 when most are thinking of retiring from the service.
And as above on your training most of the socialising happens whilst out nightclubbing staying as a group at weekends and so on if you don’t I can imagine it being a very lonely course.
I joined the RAF in the early 1980's at the tender age of just turned 17.
I remember in my RAF Swinderby recruit training flight, there were two oldies. A 28 year old and a 36 year old, who we called grandad and great grandad respectively. The latter was rejoining the RAF. He'd already done a few years service in the 1960's / early 70's. I guess the RAF must have been desperate for stewards in those days!
For my course of training, Aircraft Engineering Apprentice, the permitted age on entry was 16 to 18.5 years. The majority of recruits of all trades appeared to be under 18. The over 18's were issued with a green epaulette slide, thus enabling the wearer to purchase booze in the NAAFI bar. These valuable items of uniform were quite thin on the ground and therefore highly prized and barterable. Just don't get caught!
The armed forces expect personnel to fully embrace the ethos. Recruit training is designed to break you down and then build you back up as the service sees fit. I'm not sure how successful this would be with a middle-aged recruit.
How would the OP feel when the Drill Corporal / PTI / Regiment NCO screams insults and obscenities in his face over the tiniest transgression. Does this still happen? I certainly hope so!
I remember in my RAF Swinderby recruit training flight, there were two oldies. A 28 year old and a 36 year old, who we called grandad and great grandad respectively. The latter was rejoining the RAF. He'd already done a few years service in the 1960's / early 70's. I guess the RAF must have been desperate for stewards in those days!
For my course of training, Aircraft Engineering Apprentice, the permitted age on entry was 16 to 18.5 years. The majority of recruits of all trades appeared to be under 18. The over 18's were issued with a green epaulette slide, thus enabling the wearer to purchase booze in the NAAFI bar. These valuable items of uniform were quite thin on the ground and therefore highly prized and barterable. Just don't get caught!
The armed forces expect personnel to fully embrace the ethos. Recruit training is designed to break you down and then build you back up as the service sees fit. I'm not sure how successful this would be with a middle-aged recruit.
How would the OP feel when the Drill Corporal / PTI / Regiment NCO screams insults and obscenities in his face over the tiniest transgression. Does this still happen? I certainly hope so!
Edited by JoeBolt on Monday 23 July 05:51
Some interesting insight there and an education - all sorts of factors I hadn't considered. Back to the drawing board, perhaps.
DuraAce said:
You think a 43 years old recruit living and working with teenagers is a good thing?
I was late 30s going on 40 working with graduates and that was great. Young, optimistic, vibrant, energetic people who made me feel like I'd been given a new lease of life. Far better than working with my peers who just want to spend all day talking about their kids and what's happening on the soaps.DuraAce said:
jonah35 said:
Amazing isn’t it!
The government can discriminate on age but private businesses can’t
You dont think some of the reasons provided above outline why it's required in this case? The government can discriminate on age but private businesses can’t
You think a 43 years old recruit living and working with teenagers is a good thing?
MitchT said:
At 43 I'm pondering a change of direction. Looks like plenty of interesting things to do in the RAF and training provided too. However, looking at some roles that I could be interested in, it's quickly obvious that I'm on a hiding to nothing.
Applicants must be ...
Cyberspace Communication Specialist - 16 – 35 years old
Driver - 17 – 29 years old
Air Operations (Control) Officer - 17.5 – 40 (Must attest before 41st birthday)
Etc.
I thought this kind of thing was illegal these days.
Join the Reserve, usually far more relaxed.Applicants must be ...
Cyberspace Communication Specialist - 16 – 35 years old
Driver - 17 – 29 years old
Air Operations (Control) Officer - 17.5 – 40 (Must attest before 41st birthday)
Etc.
I thought this kind of thing was illegal these days.
Take every opportunity to do training/exercise and after a few years you might be able to join regulars/full time reservist. Or you might not.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/army-re...
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