Health and Safety Issue. Being asked to lie
Discussion
I have a major concern with a situation I was placed in with a company I have only been working for for 6 weeks.
Background.
The company I work for (Company A) rents part of a building from Company B. Company B has their own health and safety officer and maintain overall control of the entire building.
Company B had condemned the overhead cranes prior to me starting work with Company A.
The owner of Company A had instructed the guys on the shop floor to use the overhead cranes as long as Company B didn't see them doing so.
Company B did see them using the crane and came to bring it up with the owner of Company A.
Unfortunately he wasn't on site at the time and I was the only person present in the office. The H&S officer quite angrily (I have no issue with his anger) told me to ask Company A owner to see him as soon as he returned.
I passed this message on as soon as he returned only to receive the response of.
'Ohhh I know what that's for, it's about my using the cranes that have bee condemned. I'm not going to see him, I'm going to go out so he can't catch me. If he comes to see you again just pretend you haven't seen me and you don't know anything about it'
Now that has sat very uneasily with me ever since. I did not agree and say I would pretend, and thankfully I haven't had the H&S officer come see me again either.
Where does this leave me though? Whilst I am not responsible for anyone using the cranes illegally I have been put in a position where I am aware of the issue and it is still carrying on.
Background.
The company I work for (Company A) rents part of a building from Company B. Company B has their own health and safety officer and maintain overall control of the entire building.
Company B had condemned the overhead cranes prior to me starting work with Company A.
The owner of Company A had instructed the guys on the shop floor to use the overhead cranes as long as Company B didn't see them doing so.
Company B did see them using the crane and came to bring it up with the owner of Company A.
Unfortunately he wasn't on site at the time and I was the only person present in the office. The H&S officer quite angrily (I have no issue with his anger) told me to ask Company A owner to see him as soon as he returned.
I passed this message on as soon as he returned only to receive the response of.
'Ohhh I know what that's for, it's about my using the cranes that have bee condemned. I'm not going to see him, I'm going to go out so he can't catch me. If he comes to see you again just pretend you haven't seen me and you don't know anything about it'
Now that has sat very uneasily with me ever since. I did not agree and say I would pretend, and thankfully I haven't had the H&S officer come see me again either.
Where does this leave me though? Whilst I am not responsible for anyone using the cranes illegally I have been put in a position where I am aware of the issue and it is still carrying on.
Company b could (and perhaps should) terminate the lease of company a if company b have overall responsibility for H&S snd company a are continuing dangerous practices. However, I think company b should be doing more so they either remove the cranes, replace them or repair them.
In your position, I'd be looking for a new job firstly. In the meantime, I'd facilitate a meeting with the people responsible. Your boss sounds like a dick.
In your position, I'd be looking for a new job firstly. In the meantime, I'd facilitate a meeting with the people responsible. Your boss sounds like a dick.
Are they still using the cranes?
Oh yes, and get a new job. Your boss is a dick, and a dangerous dick at that.
This link http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/whistleblowers.htm may be of use, but overall won't really help when your boss is that much of a dick.
Oh yes, and get a new job. Your boss is a dick, and a dangerous dick at that.
This link http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/whistleblowers.htm may be of use, but overall won't really help when your boss is that much of a dick.
deckster said:
Are they still using the cranes?
Oh yes, and get a new job. Your boss is a dick, and a dangerous dick at that.
This link http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/whistleblowers.htm may be of use, but overall won't really help when your boss is that much of a dick.
To be clear, you believe the OPs boss to be dick? Oh yes, and get a new job. Your boss is a dick, and a dangerous dick at that.
This link http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/whistleblowers.htm may be of use, but overall won't really help when your boss is that much of a dick.
geeks said:
deckster said:
Are they still using the cranes?
Oh yes, and get a new job. Your boss is a dick, and a dangerous dick at that.
This link http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/whistleblowers.htm may be of use, but overall won't really help when your boss is that much of a dick.
To be clear, you believe the OPs boss to be dick? Oh yes, and get a new job. Your boss is a dick, and a dangerous dick at that.
This link http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/whistleblowers.htm may be of use, but overall won't really help when your boss is that much of a dick.
PS He's definitely a dick
You need to document and register what has happened. Don't assume that simply leaving the company will end your involvement with the problem.
If something terrible happened such as the crane collapsing causing death or injury, an investigation would take place and this would determine who knew what and who did and didn't do what. Your name would be flagged up as knowing and doing nothing.
You would likely escape conviction as you were simply following the instruction of your superior but regardless, it's not something you want to be dragged through or have on your record going forward.
HSE have a confidential whistleblowing service. Strongly suggest you use it.
If something terrible happened such as the crane collapsing causing death or injury, an investigation would take place and this would determine who knew what and who did and didn't do what. Your name would be flagged up as knowing and doing nothing.
You would likely escape conviction as you were simply following the instruction of your superior but regardless, it's not something you want to be dragged through or have on your record going forward.
HSE have a confidential whistleblowing service. Strongly suggest you use it.
StevieBee said:
You need to document and register what has happened. Don't assume that simply leaving the company will end your involvement with the problem.
If something terrible happened such as the crane collapsing causing death or injury, an investigation would take place and this would determine who knew what and who did and didn't do what. Your name would be flagged up as knowing and doing nothing.
You would likely escape conviction as you were simply following the instruction of your superior but regardless, it's not something you want to be dragged through or have on your record going forward.
HSE have a confidential whistleblowing service. Strongly suggest you use it.
Double agree on this. What with your (ex) boss being a dick and all that, if anything should happen he will probably blame you. Write everything down now before you forget and email it to yourself. It's then got a time/date stamp.If something terrible happened such as the crane collapsing causing death or injury, an investigation would take place and this would determine who knew what and who did and didn't do what. Your name would be flagged up as knowing and doing nothing.
You would likely escape conviction as you were simply following the instruction of your superior but regardless, it's not something you want to be dragged through or have on your record going forward.
HSE have a confidential whistleblowing service. Strongly suggest you use it.
Congrats on getting out.
55palfers said:
I had 30 years as a H&S CMIOSH bod.
Was involved in the aftermath of a fatality where an overhead crane failed.
That's all I have to say.
A bit off-topic and I apologise but how would one get into this line of work?Was involved in the aftermath of a fatality where an overhead crane failed.
That's all I have to say.
I currently work in Graphic design but have taken an interest in the H&S career path due to partly poor H&S at our workplace and ROSPA being one of our customers.
Could you shoot us a quick PM if you have a min about where to start looking?
cheers
StevieBee said:
You need to document and register what has happened. Don't assume that simply leaving the company will end your involvement with the problem.
If something terrible happened such as the crane collapsing causing death or injury, an investigation would take place and this would determine who knew what and who did and didn't do what. Your name would be flagged up as knowing and doing nothing.
You would likely escape conviction as you were simply following the instruction of your superior but regardless, it's not something you want to be dragged through or have on your record going forward.
HSE have a confidential whistleblowing service. Strongly suggest you use it.
Spot on.If something terrible happened such as the crane collapsing causing death or injury, an investigation would take place and this would determine who knew what and who did and didn't do what. Your name would be flagged up as knowing and doing nothing.
You would likely escape conviction as you were simply following the instruction of your superior but regardless, it's not something you want to be dragged through or have on your record going forward.
HSE have a confidential whistleblowing service. Strongly suggest you use it.
Plus how would you feel personally if the worst did happen and you hadn't blown the whistle?
Thanks for the sound advice, it was pretty much what I expected to hear and confirms I was right in my concerns.
I don't know the full story but apparently they have 'only' been condemned due to their age and the way in which they are earthed which is why he feels justified in using them still.
I did make reference to being uneasy about being asked to pretend I knew nothing of the issue in my resignation letter as I wanted to make sure that I began the documentation of it as soon as possible.
The crane issue aside I have also seen far too many other things in there which are just plain wrong.
I don't know the full story but apparently they have 'only' been condemned due to their age and the way in which they are earthed which is why he feels justified in using them still.
I did make reference to being uneasy about being asked to pretend I knew nothing of the issue in my resignation letter as I wanted to make sure that I began the documentation of it as soon as possible.
The crane issue aside I have also seen far too many other things in there which are just plain wrong.
This type of equipment is subject to LOLER and PUWER assessment and failure to comply with these is a criminal offence.
"These Regulations (often abbreviated to LOLER) place duties on people and companies who own, operate or have control over lifting equipment. This includes all businesses and organisations whose employees use lifting equipment, whether owned by them or not. In most cases, lifting equipment is also work equipment so the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations (PUWER) will also apply (including inspection and maintenance). All lifting operations involving lifting equipment must be properly planned by a competent person, appropriately supervised and carried out in a safe manner.
LOLER also requires that all equipment used for lifting is fit for purpose, appropriate for the task, suitably marked and, in many cases, subject to statutory periodic 'thorough examination'. Records must be kept of all thorough examinations and any defects found must be reported to both the person responsible for the equipment and the relevant enforcing authority."
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/loler.pdf
"These Regulations (often abbreviated to LOLER) place duties on people and companies who own, operate or have control over lifting equipment. This includes all businesses and organisations whose employees use lifting equipment, whether owned by them or not. In most cases, lifting equipment is also work equipment so the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations (PUWER) will also apply (including inspection and maintenance). All lifting operations involving lifting equipment must be properly planned by a competent person, appropriately supervised and carried out in a safe manner.
LOLER also requires that all equipment used for lifting is fit for purpose, appropriate for the task, suitably marked and, in many cases, subject to statutory periodic 'thorough examination'. Records must be kept of all thorough examinations and any defects found must be reported to both the person responsible for the equipment and the relevant enforcing authority."
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/loler.pdf
As soon as the cranes were condemed they should have been isolated.
If it's pendent controlled, unplugg the pendent, if radio transmitter unplugg and placed with the radio trandmitter in the h&s office until recommissioned.
The busbars that supply power to the cranes will be on there own isolator switch which will be at one end of the system at shoulder level. This can be padlocked off locally.
If equipment is available for use it will be used, it is as simple as that.
You have to protect those that evolution and education have failed.
Everyone loves to point fingers, if you want to talk to a human who deals with situations as you have discribed for some practical advice, drop me your contact details and I'll give you a call
Kind regards
Angelo
If it's pendent controlled, unplugg the pendent, if radio transmitter unplugg and placed with the radio trandmitter in the h&s office until recommissioned.
The busbars that supply power to the cranes will be on there own isolator switch which will be at one end of the system at shoulder level. This can be padlocked off locally.
If equipment is available for use it will be used, it is as simple as that.
You have to protect those that evolution and education have failed.
Everyone loves to point fingers, if you want to talk to a human who deals with situations as you have discribed for some practical advice, drop me your contact details and I'll give you a call
Kind regards
Angelo
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