Recruiting without using an agency?
Discussion
We're a small (9 full-time) business near Gatwick looking for a sales-focused account manager/director.
Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
threadlock said:
We're a small (9 full-time) business near Gatwick looking for a sales-focused account manager/director.
Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
You shouldn't have a problem negotiating a lower rate from an Agency, when I worked in the industry, our Ts and Cs were 15% but we'd go as low as 8% for a perm, particularly if we knew we had great candidates for the role. Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
Thanks for the replies.
Best rate we've managed to negotiate with agencies in the past is 12% for those starting at 15%, but since some agencies for professionals start at 20% I assumed 15% would be a reasonable average to expect.
As for "endless applications" to be honest that'd be the least of our worries. It'd be nice to have that problem
Do decent candidates use Reed/Indeed/Monster etc. or do they just sign up with agencies?
Best rate we've managed to negotiate with agencies in the past is 12% for those starting at 15%, but since some agencies for professionals start at 20% I assumed 15% would be a reasonable average to expect.
As for "endless applications" to be honest that'd be the least of our worries. It'd be nice to have that problem
Do decent candidates use Reed/Indeed/Monster etc. or do they just sign up with agencies?
theyre like vultures circling on Linkedin (the recruitment agencies).....
stick a post up on there now and see who the first bunch of responses come from within minutes - itll be the agencies. beginning to hate them with a vengeance. they bring little to the table IMHO. 5 or 10 years ago when there was far more jobs about and far fewer recruiters things were more professional. I could do a better job ( I have thought about setting myself up as one TBH as I could survive quite well on way less than 15%!) I managed to get one guy on Linkedin an interview! Didnt know him from adam! its about contacts.
Yes post on Linkedin but be as subtle about it as possible - dont just put "sales person wanted" or "recruiting for staff" those kind of words. I am not saying the agencies will not eventually post but if they do and you dont want to trade with them just ignore them.
I think the best jobs today are direct whether through a direct approach or a referral. the agencies have far too many people on the books to do anything approaching a thorough "sifting".
good luck.
stick a post up on there now and see who the first bunch of responses come from within minutes - itll be the agencies. beginning to hate them with a vengeance. they bring little to the table IMHO. 5 or 10 years ago when there was far more jobs about and far fewer recruiters things were more professional. I could do a better job ( I have thought about setting myself up as one TBH as I could survive quite well on way less than 15%!) I managed to get one guy on Linkedin an interview! Didnt know him from adam! its about contacts.
Yes post on Linkedin but be as subtle about it as possible - dont just put "sales person wanted" or "recruiting for staff" those kind of words. I am not saying the agencies will not eventually post but if they do and you dont want to trade with them just ignore them.
I think the best jobs today are direct whether through a direct approach or a referral. the agencies have far too many people on the books to do anything approaching a thorough "sifting".
good luck.
I got decent guys through Monster and Reed a couple of years ago
But my ex-boss tried it and just got dross.
I suspect it depends how you word the advert and the market situation.
Networking is definitely the way to go, I'd be very surprised if someone in a sales role (or recruiting for same) isn't incredibly well connected and hence word of mouth would be effective.
PM me if you would like a slightly deeper discussion and possibly a couple of connections.
But my ex-boss tried it and just got dross.
I suspect it depends how you word the advert and the market situation.
Networking is definitely the way to go, I'd be very surprised if someone in a sales role (or recruiting for same) isn't incredibly well connected and hence word of mouth would be effective.
PM me if you would like a slightly deeper discussion and possibly a couple of connections.
ToothbrushMan said:
theyre like vultures circling on Linkedin (the recruitment agencies).....
stick a post up on there now and see who the first bunch of responses come from within minutes - itll be the agencies. beginning to hate them with a vengeance. they bring little to the table IMHO. 5 or 10 years ago when there was far more jobs about and far fewer recruiters things were more professional. I could do a better job ( I have thought about setting myself up as one TBH as I could survive quite well on way less than 15%!) I managed to get one guy on Linkedin an interview! Didnt know him from adam! its about contacts.
Yes post on Linkedin but be as subtle about it as possible - dont just put "sales person wanted" or "recruiting for staff" those kind of words. I am not saying the agencies will not eventually post but if they do and you dont want to trade with them just ignore them.
I think the best jobs today are direct whether through a direct approach or a referral. the agencies have far too many people on the books to do anything approaching a thorough "sifting".
good luck.
You#re probably right from a recruitment point of view, but from a candidates perspective I used agencies for years, as it saved me trawling for jobs, filling out loads of applications, writing covering letters etc etc and let someone else do it all for mestick a post up on there now and see who the first bunch of responses come from within minutes - itll be the agencies. beginning to hate them with a vengeance. they bring little to the table IMHO. 5 or 10 years ago when there was far more jobs about and far fewer recruiters things were more professional. I could do a better job ( I have thought about setting myself up as one TBH as I could survive quite well on way less than 15%!) I managed to get one guy on Linkedin an interview! Didnt know him from adam! its about contacts.
Yes post on Linkedin but be as subtle about it as possible - dont just put "sales person wanted" or "recruiting for staff" those kind of words. I am not saying the agencies will not eventually post but if they do and you dont want to trade with them just ignore them.
I think the best jobs today are direct whether through a direct approach or a referral. the agencies have far too many people on the books to do anything approaching a thorough "sifting".
good luck.
keirik said:
from a candidates perspective I used agencies for years, as it saved me trawling for jobs, filling out loads of applications, writing covering letters etc etc and let someone else do it all for me
This is our worry. Are candidates who are any good (at this sort of non-junior level) going to bother with all that work or will they just be going through the agencies to find opportunities?Flooble said:
Networking is definitely the way to go, I'd be very surprised if someone in a sales role (or recruiting for same) isn't incredibly well connected and hence word of mouth would be effective.
PM me if you would like a slightly deeper discussion and possibly a couple of connections.
We've tried but can't think of anybody through our networking groups who'd be suitable for the role. Although we have quite a few competitors locally we don't know many of their account managers well enough to try and poach.PM me if you would like a slightly deeper discussion and possibly a couple of connections.
Speak to your customers about who they would recommend from your competitors and let them know you are recruiting?
Linkedin is definitely a good one and just put no canvassers or agencies, it wont stop them but will reduce them, also search on linkedin yourself after all that is all agencies seem to do nowadays
Linkedin is definitely a good one and just put no canvassers or agencies, it wont stop them but will reduce them, also search on linkedin yourself after all that is all agencies seem to do nowadays
I’m the MD of a recruitment/search business, but a specialist in a different sector so have no interest in working with you, but I can definitely give some (hopefully helpful) advice.
I advise all my clients to explore their own avenues and internal networks first to identify candidates. If this doesn’t deliver results in 3-4 weeks, and/or you don’t have the time to manage the whole process, then this is IMO when you should look for external help.
Dont bother with any of the volume based contingent (fee on success-only) recruiters because the majority will be garbage and probably just peddling candidates on the job boards who are ‘actively looking for a role’.
These are the ones that operate at 20% fees and you can probably negotiate them down further. However, in doing so you are just basically reducing the amount of time they will spend finding you candidates - because they’re working on 10-20 other jobs on the same success-only basis, and therefore expect only 1-2 of these to be successful and get paid.
That model is well and truly broken and is not worth pursuing. It’s also how 90% of the recruitment industry in the UK operates (disappointingly for everyone).
If you’re serious about recruiting (and retaining) the right person, then IMO you can do no better than engaging with a specialist recruiter who will dedicate time to understand your business in depth, then the requirement, and will then perform a structured search to identify, engage with, qualify and assess candidates who are a true match.
You will have to pay for the pleasure (prob 22-30% of salary) and it won’t be on a success-only basis (usually 1/3 up front), but when you hire the RIGHT person they will add more to your business than the fee, whilst saving you time too.
Most proper recruiters will incorporate a 6 month guarantee into this. I personally offer 12 months (and 24 months for Exec/Board level) but that can be a negotiation point for you.
You can also monitor the project based on strict milestones with weekly status updates included. This way you know exactly what is happeneningcand can manage the process in a hands-off way. This will be the way they are used to working.
As I said earlier, unfortunately the recruitment industry in the UK is well and truly broken - mainly due to all the value being squeezed out by a constant reduction of fees over the last 15+ years. It hurts the recruitment industry and gives it a bad name, but it also hurts UK industry as a whole.
Sorry I can’t point you in the direction of anyone specific, but I hope my comments are helpful in some way...
I advise all my clients to explore their own avenues and internal networks first to identify candidates. If this doesn’t deliver results in 3-4 weeks, and/or you don’t have the time to manage the whole process, then this is IMO when you should look for external help.
Dont bother with any of the volume based contingent (fee on success-only) recruiters because the majority will be garbage and probably just peddling candidates on the job boards who are ‘actively looking for a role’.
These are the ones that operate at 20% fees and you can probably negotiate them down further. However, in doing so you are just basically reducing the amount of time they will spend finding you candidates - because they’re working on 10-20 other jobs on the same success-only basis, and therefore expect only 1-2 of these to be successful and get paid.
That model is well and truly broken and is not worth pursuing. It’s also how 90% of the recruitment industry in the UK operates (disappointingly for everyone).
If you’re serious about recruiting (and retaining) the right person, then IMO you can do no better than engaging with a specialist recruiter who will dedicate time to understand your business in depth, then the requirement, and will then perform a structured search to identify, engage with, qualify and assess candidates who are a true match.
You will have to pay for the pleasure (prob 22-30% of salary) and it won’t be on a success-only basis (usually 1/3 up front), but when you hire the RIGHT person they will add more to your business than the fee, whilst saving you time too.
Most proper recruiters will incorporate a 6 month guarantee into this. I personally offer 12 months (and 24 months for Exec/Board level) but that can be a negotiation point for you.
You can also monitor the project based on strict milestones with weekly status updates included. This way you know exactly what is happeneningcand can manage the process in a hands-off way. This will be the way they are used to working.
As I said earlier, unfortunately the recruitment industry in the UK is well and truly broken - mainly due to all the value being squeezed out by a constant reduction of fees over the last 15+ years. It hurts the recruitment industry and gives it a bad name, but it also hurts UK industry as a whole.
Sorry I can’t point you in the direction of anyone specific, but I hope my comments are helpful in some way...
Thanks stub101 - that is interesting. We have appointed two candidates via agencies in the last 6 years that have worked out well but our three latest recruits have been via word of mouth and are equally great, so we seem to get little benefit from the recruiters. (I'm aware we've been quite lucky with these recruits though.) Last time we tried an agency for a developer role the candidates were all disappointing, but I'm not on a downer about agencies in general; I'm aware that there will be good and bad ones out there. But sadly I don't think we can afford the good ones 
The £15k fees you mention just aren't feasible for us, even with a six-month guarantee.
A205GTI speaking to competitors' clients is an interesting idea. We do network with plenty of businesses and it'd be easy to wheedle that subject into a conversation.
Maybe I'll upgrade to LinkedIn Premium for a while and see whether that gives us access to a good range of poachable people.
The £15k fees you mention just aren't feasible for us, even with a six-month guarantee.A205GTI speaking to competitors' clients is an interesting idea. We do network with plenty of businesses and it'd be easy to wheedle that subject into a conversation.
Maybe I'll upgrade to LinkedIn Premium for a while and see whether that gives us access to a good range of poachable people.
threadlock said:
But sadly I don't think we can afford the good ones The £15k fees you mention just aren't feasible for us, even with a six-month guarantee.
Just remember that it is proven the total cost of a bad hire to a business (incl 2x recruitment costs, lost revenue, time and productivity) can be 2-3 times the salary of the role... The £15k fees you mention just aren't feasible for us, even with a six-month guarantee.If you can’t afford a £15k fee then you definitely can’t afford to lose £80k-120k by hiring the wrong person...
It amazes me how many people don’t equate the two scenarios and still try to recruit on the cheap.
threadlock said:
We're a small (9 full-time) business near Gatwick looking for a sales-focused account manager/director.
Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
I'm a recruiter also and while due to the number of poor agencies out there, resulting in the industry being given a bad name, I don't understand why you wouldn't engage 1 or 2 good agencies.Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
It's free to interview their candidates, so if the candidates aren't worth the extra fee vs. your own sourced candidate, then don't hire them!
If you make the judgment that they are worth the fee, then it will make good sense to do so.
How is it not that simple?
lawtoni said:
threadlock said:
We're a small (9 full-time) business near Gatwick looking for a sales-focused account manager/director.
Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
I'm a recruiter also and while due to the number of poor agencies out there, resulting in the industry being given a bad name, I don't understand why you wouldn't engage 1 or 2 good agencies.Our recent experience with agencies is that they don't often seem to justify their fees with a high volume of particularly impressive candidates.
Without going through an agency and getting stung for 15%+ fees for a £40k+ role, what's the best way to find candidates? Indeed.co.uk, Monster, LinkedIn, etc.?
It's free to interview their candidates, so if the candidates aren't worth the extra fee vs. your own sourced candidate, then don't hire them!
If you make the judgment that they are worth the fee, then it will make good sense to do so.
How is it not that simple?
Part of the trick is knowing the good agencies (or, more likely, good recruiters - I wouldn't even say any given agency is "good" or "bad" but specific recruiters. A highlight for me was the chap who rang up and asked if I wanted a programming job.
"What language?" say I.
"Erm, any?"
"No, don't joke, they must have specified. At least what is it, embedded/web/line of business?"
"Not sure ... what's C pound?"
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