Management Courses or similar.
Discussion
Where do people go to take actually valuable "management" courses, or something similar? I am wary of going to somewhere that just offers a few seminars but no real content.
The position I am in at work is currently quite favourable. I have it on good authority that my work is respected, and that my subject knowledge is probably the best of anyone in our company. Which is great in most respects. However, that subject knowledge is very specialist and has come through many years of experience and self-teaching, plus the valuable guidance I've had from managers and colleagues. Last week we had our annual conference and I got chatting with our division MD and he echoed the above sentiments again. Good to know my name is one he has heard of etc.
What I may lack though has been any actual formal training in "business management", and this is an area I feel that my company has lacked in at all over all my time with them. I know how to do things such as disciplinary and grievance hearings and investigations, performance management sessions, sickness meetings, within company guidelines.
Current level, at my age of 33, is a job with the title "Manager" in but where I am a manager level because of my knowledge, though I don't have any direct reports. Previous roles were Duty Manager on site, that kind of level, and I'm "half a level" above them. I think the next stage would be to become a more prominent manager, I feel a lot of the stuff I don't know is stuff I would like to know. And as much as I can spend time with our finance team, resource team etc, they aren't trainers or won't necessarily have the time to give it all.
And so I expressed this to the MD over a drink at the conference and he said that I would definitely be someone that, in principle, he would be happy to sponsor through some kind of development course, and not "some Mickey Mouse course" as he put it. He wants to retain me in the business, and I am happy to stay - I don't think our biggest competitor would offer me enough money to transfer to make it worth my while even if they did offer me a bit more money.
As much as I know, I could go ahead and do an MBA. A colleague is currently doing one and of course it looks like a daunting prospect alongside a full time job, but it could be what I need. But is there something I am missing?
Thanks in advance
The position I am in at work is currently quite favourable. I have it on good authority that my work is respected, and that my subject knowledge is probably the best of anyone in our company. Which is great in most respects. However, that subject knowledge is very specialist and has come through many years of experience and self-teaching, plus the valuable guidance I've had from managers and colleagues. Last week we had our annual conference and I got chatting with our division MD and he echoed the above sentiments again. Good to know my name is one he has heard of etc.
What I may lack though has been any actual formal training in "business management", and this is an area I feel that my company has lacked in at all over all my time with them. I know how to do things such as disciplinary and grievance hearings and investigations, performance management sessions, sickness meetings, within company guidelines.
Current level, at my age of 33, is a job with the title "Manager" in but where I am a manager level because of my knowledge, though I don't have any direct reports. Previous roles were Duty Manager on site, that kind of level, and I'm "half a level" above them. I think the next stage would be to become a more prominent manager, I feel a lot of the stuff I don't know is stuff I would like to know. And as much as I can spend time with our finance team, resource team etc, they aren't trainers or won't necessarily have the time to give it all.
And so I expressed this to the MD over a drink at the conference and he said that I would definitely be someone that, in principle, he would be happy to sponsor through some kind of development course, and not "some Mickey Mouse course" as he put it. He wants to retain me in the business, and I am happy to stay - I don't think our biggest competitor would offer me enough money to transfer to make it worth my while even if they did offer me a bit more money.
As much as I know, I could go ahead and do an MBA. A colleague is currently doing one and of course it looks like a daunting prospect alongside a full time job, but it could be what I need. But is there something I am missing?
Thanks in advance
I'd highly recommend a 'general management' or 'advanced development' programme from the likes of somewhere like Cranfield or Ashridge, such as one of these Cranfield programmes or this Ashridge programme. They're excellent. Not cheap, but you've had the offer of company sponsorship.
Another option to consider is working towards Chartered Manager status. It's less expensive than a course at a business school, but still worthwhile in terms of personal learning and development.
Another option to consider is working towards Chartered Manager status. It's less expensive than a course at a business school, but still worthwhile in terms of personal learning and development.
Shakermaker said:
As much as I know, I could go ahead and do an MBA. A colleague is currently doing one and of course it looks like a daunting prospect alongside a full time job, but it could be what I need. But is there something I am missing?
You're right to be daunted by the level of commitment and sheer amount of time demanded by an MBA. If you can get into a top-ranked school, it's probably worth it for CV value.SVS said:
I'd highly recommend a 'general management' or 'advanced development' programme from the likes of somewhere like Cranfield or Ashridge, such as one of these Cranfield programmes or this Ashridge programme. They're excellent. Not cheap, but you've had the offer of company sponsorship.
Another option to consider is working towards Chartered Manager status. It's less expensive than a course at a business school, but still worthwhile in terms of personal learning and development.
This is the great type of advice that I like about PH. Thanks SVS, I'll have a more in-depth look at all of those options and I guess its probably got a few good things in there to help me search elsewhere alsoAnother option to consider is working towards Chartered Manager status. It's less expensive than a course at a business school, but still worthwhile in terms of personal learning and development.
Shakermaker said:
As much as I know, I could go ahead and do an MBA. A colleague is currently doing one and of course it looks like a daunting prospect alongside a full time job, but it could be what I need. But is there something I am missing?
You're right to be daunted by the level of commitment and sheer amount of time demanded by an MBA. If you can get into a top-ranked school, it's probably worth it for CV value.I'm part way through doing this.
Good quality content based on their MBA course but no assessments/essays or exams...just what I needed.
http://www.aston.ac.uk/aston-business-school/execu...
Good quality content based on their MBA course but no assessments/essays or exams...just what I needed.
http://www.aston.ac.uk/aston-business-school/execu...
968CS said:
I'm part way through doing this.
Good quality content based on their MBA course but no assessments/essays or exams...just what I needed.
http://www.aston.ac.uk/aston-business-school/execu...
I'm a bit unclear. It says online, but it's based on face-to-face seminars? Or am I mixing up two types of course they offer?Good quality content based on their MBA course but no assessments/essays or exams...just what I needed.
http://www.aston.ac.uk/aston-business-school/execu...
I'd be very interested in anyone who has experience of a flexible, online/distance MBA with not too strict a schedule. I couldn't commit to rigid assignment times (or anything that requires travel or day-time learning) at this point in my life, but would love a self-paced learning course with something meaningful at the end of it, even if it's not a proper Masters.
6 x 2 day face to face modules based on lectures/exercises/case studies at Aston spread over 12 months. If you miss a module you can do it next time it comes around very flexible. Then about a month after each module there is a follow up webinar to go over the modules and explore how you've been able to put the learning into practise the work environment.
There are increasingly Executive MBAs, which is a fancy way of saying part-time study allowing you to continue to work. These take a hybrid approach with online learning/assignments and some face-to-face work. To do an MBA without any face-to-face interaction and group work is a bit pointless in my opinion. Better off getting a library card. The interactions are probably the single aspect that bring most value - other people, their experiences, the network you take away with you.
The value of an MBA is debatable. I do think one from a top university is still valuable. A smarter approach might be to look at the skills achieved in the MBA and create strategies to develop them. The likes of Seth Godin have created courses like the altMBA for that purpose. There are about a hundred different ways you can achieve the same target. Is spending time and money on business school the ONLY way to acquire these skills?
e.g. pro bono consulting work, getting on the board of a company/charity, free work with a start-up etc
The gap between formal study and practice will probably not address what you're actually asking. Managing people and systems requires practice, experience, mentoring and targeted learning. So stuff goal setting, motivating, coaching, stakeholders and alliance building, leading and decision making, development and training, building a team, change management etc are ongoing skills. There are plenty of courses out there, but it's not like a science where you take the course and reach the destination. If you're looking for a silver bullet, there isn't one and I don't think an MBA will make you a superstar at any of these.
Here's some practical things I'd do. Ask you manager how he/she will measure your success in the role if this isn't crystal clear to you. Of those who did a similar role, who was the best and why-- what things really stood out in them? Can you reach out to these people? Who are the top 5 people in your company that your manager "rates" and can you set up 30 minute meetings to figure out what makes them good at their jobs? They'll give you free mentoring. It's easy to do this when you're freshly promoted - also well worth doing with your superiors as an introduction (I do this with directors and above if I can!), much harder if you've been in role for a year. Might sound a bit on the nose, but you'll be surprised how much people are willing to help and you'll learn a heck of a lot about the company and how to get things done.
You do realise moving from an individual contributor to a manager means those coveted skills of your won't be so valuable. Your personal development in the space is going to stall. Depending on the size of your team, you could be spending all your time just managing the system - so what your measured on now, what you've historically done well, won't help you with your end of your performance review. It's a really difficult transition from an individual to manager and it's not for everyone. Hence Google and others have two tracks for promotion: individual and manager, and the salaries are equal.
The value of an MBA is debatable. I do think one from a top university is still valuable. A smarter approach might be to look at the skills achieved in the MBA and create strategies to develop them. The likes of Seth Godin have created courses like the altMBA for that purpose. There are about a hundred different ways you can achieve the same target. Is spending time and money on business school the ONLY way to acquire these skills?
e.g. pro bono consulting work, getting on the board of a company/charity, free work with a start-up etc
The gap between formal study and practice will probably not address what you're actually asking. Managing people and systems requires practice, experience, mentoring and targeted learning. So stuff goal setting, motivating, coaching, stakeholders and alliance building, leading and decision making, development and training, building a team, change management etc are ongoing skills. There are plenty of courses out there, but it's not like a science where you take the course and reach the destination. If you're looking for a silver bullet, there isn't one and I don't think an MBA will make you a superstar at any of these.
Here's some practical things I'd do. Ask you manager how he/she will measure your success in the role if this isn't crystal clear to you. Of those who did a similar role, who was the best and why-- what things really stood out in them? Can you reach out to these people? Who are the top 5 people in your company that your manager "rates" and can you set up 30 minute meetings to figure out what makes them good at their jobs? They'll give you free mentoring. It's easy to do this when you're freshly promoted - also well worth doing with your superiors as an introduction (I do this with directors and above if I can!), much harder if you've been in role for a year. Might sound a bit on the nose, but you'll be surprised how much people are willing to help and you'll learn a heck of a lot about the company and how to get things done.
You do realise moving from an individual contributor to a manager means those coveted skills of your won't be so valuable. Your personal development in the space is going to stall. Depending on the size of your team, you could be spending all your time just managing the system - so what your measured on now, what you've historically done well, won't help you with your end of your performance review. It's a really difficult transition from an individual to manager and it's not for everyone. Hence Google and others have two tracks for promotion: individual and manager, and the salaries are equal.
Edited by silent ninja on Saturday 10th November 14:16
silent ninja said:
There are increasingly Executive MBAs, which is a fancy way of saying part-time study allowing you to continue to work. These take a hybrid approach with online learning/assignments and some face-to-face work. To do an MBA without any face-to-face interaction and group work is a bit pointless in my opinion. Better off getting a library card. The interactions are probably the single aspect that bring most value - other people, their experiences, the network you take away with you.
The value of an MBA is debatable. I do think one from a top university is still valuable. A smarter approach might be to look at the skills achieved in the MBA and create strategies to develop them. The likes of Seth Godin have created courses like the altMBA for that purpose. There are about a hundred different ways you can achieve the same target. Is spending time and money on business school the ONLY way to acquire these skills?
e.g. pro bono consulting work, getting on the board of a company/charity, free work with a start-up etc
The gap between formal study and practice will probably not address what you're actually asking. Managing people and systems requires practice, experience, mentoring and targeted learning. So stuff goal setting, motivating, coaching, stakeholders and alliance building, leading and decision making, development and training, building a team, change management etc are ongoing skills. There are plenty of courses out there, but it's not like a science where you take the course and reach the destination. If you're looking for a silver bullet, there isn't one and I don't think an MBA will make you a superstar at any of these.
Here's some practical things I'd do. Ask you manager how he/she will measure your success in the role if this isn't crystal clear to you. Of those who did a similar role, who was the best and why-- what things really stood out in them? Can you reach out to these people? Who are the top 5 people in your company that your manager "rates" and can you set up 30 minute meetings to figure out what makes them good at their jobs? They'll give you free mentoring. It's easy to do this when you're freshly promoted - also well worth doing with your superiors as an introduction (I do this with directors and above if I can!), much harder if you've been in role for a year. Might sound a bit on the nose, but you'll be surprised how much people are willing to help and you'll learn a heck of a lot about the company and how to get things done.
You do realise moving from an individual contributor to a manager means those coveted skills of your won't be so valuable. Your personal development in the space is going to stall. Depending on the size of your team, you could be spending all your time just managing the system - so what your measured on now, what you've historically done well, won't help you with your end of your performance review. It's a really difficult transition from an individual to manager and it's not for everyone. Hence Google and others have two tracks for promotion: individual and manager, and the salaries are equal.
Again, many thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive answer to my question, a lot to consider. The value of an MBA is debatable. I do think one from a top university is still valuable. A smarter approach might be to look at the skills achieved in the MBA and create strategies to develop them. The likes of Seth Godin have created courses like the altMBA for that purpose. There are about a hundred different ways you can achieve the same target. Is spending time and money on business school the ONLY way to acquire these skills?
e.g. pro bono consulting work, getting on the board of a company/charity, free work with a start-up etc
The gap between formal study and practice will probably not address what you're actually asking. Managing people and systems requires practice, experience, mentoring and targeted learning. So stuff goal setting, motivating, coaching, stakeholders and alliance building, leading and decision making, development and training, building a team, change management etc are ongoing skills. There are plenty of courses out there, but it's not like a science where you take the course and reach the destination. If you're looking for a silver bullet, there isn't one and I don't think an MBA will make you a superstar at any of these.
Here's some practical things I'd do. Ask you manager how he/she will measure your success in the role if this isn't crystal clear to you. Of those who did a similar role, who was the best and why-- what things really stood out in them? Can you reach out to these people? Who are the top 5 people in your company that your manager "rates" and can you set up 30 minute meetings to figure out what makes them good at their jobs? They'll give you free mentoring. It's easy to do this when you're freshly promoted - also well worth doing with your superiors as an introduction (I do this with directors and above if I can!), much harder if you've been in role for a year. Might sound a bit on the nose, but you'll be surprised how much people are willing to help and you'll learn a heck of a lot about the company and how to get things done.
You do realise moving from an individual contributor to a manager means those coveted skills of your won't be so valuable. Your personal development in the space is going to stall. Depending on the size of your team, you could be spending all your time just managing the system - so what your measured on now, what you've historically done well, won't help you with your end of your performance review. It's a really difficult transition from an individual to manager and it's not for everyone. Hence Google and others have two tracks for promotion: individual and manager, and the salaries are equal.
Edited by silent ninja on Saturday 10th November 14:16
My specific circumstances perhaps don't apply to all you have written (as nobody has done the role I do before me, thus I am both the best and worst at doing it so far...) just due to the way in which the company has gone before - hence why I perhaps feel some more structured approach to learning about management is important. Its the link from just being a local site duty manager that I used to be, which was mostly people management and responding to events when they occurred, to "company management" which involves knowing all the ancillary things such as understanding the finance, budget setting, legal implications etc. My experience so far is that few people in the company know much about the other things and that for me to succeed, I need to be able to rise above this. Having been given the opportunity and knowing that the company appreciate me and what I already do, and are willing to make some investment in furthering my education in this way, is why I want to make sure its something valuable.
Definitely take on board your point about the value of face to face learning vs just reading it all in a book.
Shakermaker said:
rog007 said:
In order (but of course you can miss steps out based upon your existing competence), you could consider:
- ILM level 5
- CMI Chartered Manager award
- Masters (MSc, MA, MBA)
Good luck!
Is that order of "most valuable to least valuable" or "least to most"?- ILM level 5
- CMI Chartered Manager award
- Masters (MSc, MA, MBA)
Good luck!
Cheers though
Agree with Rog.
I've just completed an ILM level 5 management apprenticeship which gives me both an NVQ and a diploma. This has ratified circa 10 years of leadership & management experience which combined has enabled me to gain acceptance on to an MBA at MBS. £18k of the MBA is being funded through the apprenticeship levy (it's classed as a level 7 senior leader master's degree) and the company I work for and I are stumping up the rest.
The MBA has a real focus on strategic leadership so unless you have a point of reference for this, (ie you are on the board - or one step below), then this may not be appropriate for you yet. You might be better served doing a qualification that gives you some practical management skills with which you can build your experience.
The apprenticeship levy is accessible for these qualifications so the cost to your business would be negligible.
I've just completed an ILM level 5 management apprenticeship which gives me both an NVQ and a diploma. This has ratified circa 10 years of leadership & management experience which combined has enabled me to gain acceptance on to an MBA at MBS. £18k of the MBA is being funded through the apprenticeship levy (it's classed as a level 7 senior leader master's degree) and the company I work for and I are stumping up the rest.
The MBA has a real focus on strategic leadership so unless you have a point of reference for this, (ie you are on the board - or one step below), then this may not be appropriate for you yet. You might be better served doing a qualification that gives you some practical management skills with which you can build your experience.
The apprenticeship levy is accessible for these qualifications so the cost to your business would be negligible.
TartanPaint said:
... would love a self-paced learning course with something meaningful at the end of it, even if it's not a proper Masters.
Check out the Chartered Manager qualification that both Rog and I have recommended. It meets your criteria, with something meaningful at the end of it and letters after your name that are earned.I'm 46. I became a Chartered Engineer in 1999 but felt I was missing a bunch of management skills that would take me on a different (more financially rewarding) career path. I jacked in my job and did a full time MBA at a top UK business school (FWIW, I don't there's any point in doing one at a second rate institution if you're after CV points). I was lucky enough to have had a windfall through an MEBO at work so financially there was no pain, but the fees at the time were just north of £20,000 plus living expenses for 11 months.
It was great for me, but over the last two or three years I have looked back at it and wondered if I might not have been better becoming a Chartered Accountant with part time study. Why? Because I think you either 'get' the soft skills or you don't. You might understand the theory with an MBA under your belt but it doesn't make you a super people manager. My optional modules were heavily finance-based (corporate finance, additional accounting etc) and those are the things that I have valued the most. They're hard skills and have been really helpful in my career since. So much so that I have just started on the path to getting an accounting qualification 'just because'. Helpfully, my MBA gives me exemptions for five ACCA exams.
The cost is a fraction of that of an MBA and you can take as long as you want - just pick your route from the different institutes.
This may not suit you; you need to be pretty numerate (perhaps you are?) but you will learn a lot about company performance and its management while also getting to grips with what makes companies tick.
For management skills - read a book. I made some lifelong friends though - and had a hoot being back at uni 5 years after I graduated!
Just my 2p etc and may be completely at odds with your thinking.
It was great for me, but over the last two or three years I have looked back at it and wondered if I might not have been better becoming a Chartered Accountant with part time study. Why? Because I think you either 'get' the soft skills or you don't. You might understand the theory with an MBA under your belt but it doesn't make you a super people manager. My optional modules were heavily finance-based (corporate finance, additional accounting etc) and those are the things that I have valued the most. They're hard skills and have been really helpful in my career since. So much so that I have just started on the path to getting an accounting qualification 'just because'. Helpfully, my MBA gives me exemptions for five ACCA exams.
The cost is a fraction of that of an MBA and you can take as long as you want - just pick your route from the different institutes.
This may not suit you; you need to be pretty numerate (perhaps you are?) but you will learn a lot about company performance and its management while also getting to grips with what makes companies tick.
For management skills - read a book. I made some lifelong friends though - and had a hoot being back at uni 5 years after I graduated!
Just my 2p etc and may be completely at odds with your thinking.
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