Does your employer look after its 'gurus'?
Discussion
Most companies have a very few key staff, or 'gurus', who know their products inside out, understand the technology, materials and processes, and have perhaps, most importantly of all, a good awareness of the customer's needs. These are usually the first people one turns to when there is a problem.
In the company I have just left (on good terms, I should add!), there was a chap who had been there nine years, understood the product, the manufacturing processes and all the test equipment, was good with mechanical, electrical and software issues; yet he told me that newly qualified graduates were being offered more money that he was on as a starting salary by other companies. He was an engineering graduate too, so it wasn't the lack of a qualification that was the issue.
I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
In the company I have just left (on good terms, I should add!), there was a chap who had been there nine years, understood the product, the manufacturing processes and all the test equipment, was good with mechanical, electrical and software issues; yet he told me that newly qualified graduates were being offered more money that he was on as a starting salary by other companies. He was an engineering graduate too, so it wasn't the lack of a qualification that was the issue.
I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
GliderRider said:
I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
Depends, but management are generally driven to control costs so they don't generally pay more than they need to. It's the job of the guru's manager to ensure that (if they are crucial) this is known to senior management, and that the contribution they make is recognised appropriately.A well run company may also benchmark against known industry averages every so often to see if the pay on offer is ahead, behind or broadly consistent with what is expected. If it's behind, they could make an increases in salary beyond the yearly norm to realign with their industry.
In reality there may not be an offer of more money until the guru resigns and the company has to compete with another to retain their services, but sadly it's often too late by then...
Look after your staff.
I've seen management convince themselves that the success of the business was all down to their brilliance and not the quality of the work produced by the people they'd hired, so they treated everyone all as expendable, sucking as much from them as possible and giving little in return.
Eventually, it reached breaking point and in a 12 month period they lost three quarters of the staff, and the company has gone from steady growth to hanging by a thread.
And it isn't just how the gurus are treated. The way the exploited the juniors pissed everyone off, and contributed to some of their most senior staff moving on.
I've seen management convince themselves that the success of the business was all down to their brilliance and not the quality of the work produced by the people they'd hired, so they treated everyone all as expendable, sucking as much from them as possible and giving little in return.
Eventually, it reached breaking point and in a 12 month period they lost three quarters of the staff, and the company has gone from steady growth to hanging by a thread.
And it isn't just how the gurus are treated. The way the exploited the juniors pissed everyone off, and contributed to some of their most senior staff moving on.
GliderRider said:
Most companies have a very few key staff, or 'gurus', who know their products inside out, understand the technology, materials and processes, and have perhaps, most importantly of all, a good awareness of the customer's needs. These are usually the first people one turns to when there is a problem.
In the company I have just left (on good terms, I should add!), there was a chap who had been there nine years, understood the product, the manufacturing processes and all the test equipment, was good with mechanical, electrical and software issues; yet he told me that newly qualified graduates were being offered more money that he was on as a starting salary by other companies. He was an engineering graduate too, so it wasn't the lack of a qualification that was the issue.
I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
There's the thing, comparing apples and oranges. In the company I have just left (on good terms, I should add!), there was a chap who had been there nine years, understood the product, the manufacturing processes and all the test equipment, was good with mechanical, electrical and software issues; yet he told me that newly qualified graduates were being offered more money that he was on as a starting salary by other companies. He was an engineering graduate too, so it wasn't the lack of a qualification that was the issue.
I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
How much would those other companies offer him? How much does his company offer newly qualified graduates?
I wouldn't have described myself as a 'guru', but I did have 10+ years experience at my last company with a good understanding of all areas of the company and the systems we used (worked in the finance department). Despite the department seeing a fairly high turnover of staff they refused to give me even a moderate pay increase when I took on more responsibility.
Worked out for the best in the end (at least for me), I moved on to a new job with a 30% increase in salary, while the old place was left with a lot of new starters with not much understanding of how things worked.
Worked out for the best in the end (at least for me), I moved on to a new job with a 30% increase in salary, while the old place was left with a lot of new starters with not much understanding of how things worked.
I was the EMEA expert in a suite of products at my last job. I'd worked in R&D for them, i'd supported them, and I eventually sold and consulted on them for fortune 500 companies. As the company evolved, I evolved and changed my capability set in selling and working on the products. I was largely unquestioned in my ability and have designed some fairly large systems which are used by thousands of people across Europe and helped to shape it into the architecture it is today.
The company definitely took me for granted - for a few years it was fine, pay was OK, travelled / expensed what I needed to do for the job and didn't have people looking over my shoulder. But when I came looking for payrise, it didn't happen. So I changed sectors in the industry and essentially started again.
So no, corporates don't look after their gurus. I left and I wasn't replaced. Younger people came into the company, but have zero aptitude for that balance of technical and commercial skills which the industry favours. I still get calls from my old colleagues asking me stuff and it has been 5 years!
All said though - it does go the other way. People can think they are gurus in something, but the world / business is changing around them. One of my old colleagues used to constantly remind everyone he was the expert in platform x, and I used to remind him that it was a dying platform of which the only customers using it were legacy ones whom we were trying to upgrade to the more modern stuff.
The company definitely took me for granted - for a few years it was fine, pay was OK, travelled / expensed what I needed to do for the job and didn't have people looking over my shoulder. But when I came looking for payrise, it didn't happen. So I changed sectors in the industry and essentially started again.
So no, corporates don't look after their gurus. I left and I wasn't replaced. Younger people came into the company, but have zero aptitude for that balance of technical and commercial skills which the industry favours. I still get calls from my old colleagues asking me stuff and it has been 5 years!
All said though - it does go the other way. People can think they are gurus in something, but the world / business is changing around them. One of my old colleagues used to constantly remind everyone he was the expert in platform x, and I used to remind him that it was a dying platform of which the only customers using it were legacy ones whom we were trying to upgrade to the more modern stuff.
Edited by devnull on Monday 17th December 14:53
The company I work for seems okay in this respect. Although I've been here nearly 25 years (though originally in a much smaller company bought by this one) I still don't really consider myself to be a true "guru" and I work with some folk who have been here longer and know much more about the products and systems. One of these guys is a company "Fellow" and there aren't many of those so he has obviously been recognised. The organisation structure does also allow for promotion a very long way up the ladder without becoming management, I'm a Principal Engineer but above that is Staff Engineer, Chief Engineer, Fellow, etc.
The money and benefits have also remained competitive over the years, so much so that I kind of feel tied in at the moment as I don't think I could get as much elsewhere. There have been a few key points in time where it was realised that they weren't competitive and could stand to lose a several key staff members e.g. during the mobile phone / GSM boom times so we all got big rises.
The money and benefits have also remained competitive over the years, so much so that I kind of feel tied in at the moment as I don't think I could get as much elsewhere. There have been a few key points in time where it was realised that they weren't competitive and could stand to lose a several key staff members e.g. during the mobile phone / GSM boom times so we all got big rises.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.....
Some managers are very good at recognising key staff and rewarding them, others aren't (and then suffer the consequences).
OTOH some staff think they're irreplaceable. Sometimes they are, other times they're not.
Whilst recognsing/rewarding/retaining "gurus" is important, a decent Manager would ensure that crucial business knowledge didn't just sit with one person.
Some managers are very good at recognising key staff and rewarding them, others aren't (and then suffer the consequences).
OTOH some staff think they're irreplaceable. Sometimes they are, other times they're not.
Whilst recognsing/rewarding/retaining "gurus" is important, a decent Manager would ensure that crucial business knowledge didn't just sit with one person.
GliderRider said:
newly qualified graduates were being offered more money that he was on as a starting salary by other companies. He was an engineering graduate too, so it wasn't the lack of a qualification that was the issue.
I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
Mostly BS, that's the problem caused by fake job ads on job websites. People like to look to see what they're worth and get angry because they see all these highly paid jobs that are asking for graduates, jobs that don't exist....... They usually ask for a recent graduate with years of experience, in the hope of getting CVs (CVs=Money) from both graduates AND experienced people applying on the off chance.I just wondered how common this is, and if it is, why the bosses don't realise what they stand to lose until these 'gurus' finally walk?
Fake ads are a good way to fill their books with potential candidate for when they're out selling their services to a big company.
The real graduate jobs are those you see offering <18k.
In my last role, I had two young lads working under me and they both used to complain about wages, saying they were worth more, they'd seen job ads etc etc.......... It was really frustrating, one of them eventually got sacked because he took on this attitude that he could easily find a better paid job and didn't give a sh*t, this was 2 years ago and he's only just found another job.
Employers will take advantage if they can, but it's best to ignore job ads.
I've worked for myself for over 5 years now so, yes, I make sure I look after myself!
It's a good point though. In hindsight, perhaps I was bit of a mug, but my colleagues were always asking me for advice at my previous employers. There was no doubt they were better salespeople than me, but there were definitely times where they'd have struggled to knock stuff in if it wasn't for the technical advice they tapped me for.
That, of course is never considered in sales is it? 'Well done Dave for hitting your target this month. Oh, and thanks Bob for giving him that advice. Shame you didn't hit your target . . . '
It's a good point though. In hindsight, perhaps I was bit of a mug, but my colleagues were always asking me for advice at my previous employers. There was no doubt they were better salespeople than me, but there were definitely times where they'd have struggled to knock stuff in if it wasn't for the technical advice they tapped me for.
That, of course is never considered in sales is it? 'Well done Dave for hitting your target this month. Oh, and thanks Bob for giving him that advice. Shame you didn't hit your target . . . '
PistonBroker said:
I've worked for myself for over 5 years now so, yes, I make sure I look after myself!
It's a good point though. In hindsight, perhaps I was bit of a mug, but my colleagues were always asking me for advice at my previous employers. There was no doubt they were better salespeople than me, but there were definitely times where they'd have struggled to knock stuff in if it wasn't for the technical advice they tapped me for.
That, of course is never considered in sales is it? 'Well done Dave for hitting your target this month. Oh, and thanks Bob for giving him that advice. Shame you didn't hit your target . . . '
This is exactly why good sales people usually leave a trail of mess behind them. It's a good point though. In hindsight, perhaps I was bit of a mug, but my colleagues were always asking me for advice at my previous employers. There was no doubt they were better salespeople than me, but there were definitely times where they'd have struggled to knock stuff in if it wasn't for the technical advice they tapped me for.
That, of course is never considered in sales is it? 'Well done Dave for hitting your target this month. Oh, and thanks Bob for giving him that advice. Shame you didn't hit your target . . . '
I'm a guru where I work (20 yrs, software techie) and have just had my pay enhanced because a lot of my colleagues are late 50's and retiring.
Over the years I could have got more elsewhere, but it's a case of me genuinely liking my job and enjoying the T&C's - specifically the ability to work very flexible hours and from home pretty much whenever I want.
I could make more money by schlepping into the City of London every day but the thought of getting up at 6am every day to stuff my face into someone's armpit whilst not getting a seat on the train for £4k a year fills me with dread. I rolled out of bed at 8:45am this morning, shower/s
t/shaved, was dressed and online for my first conference call of the day at 9am.
All about quality of life, innit?
Over the years I could have got more elsewhere, but it's a case of me genuinely liking my job and enjoying the T&C's - specifically the ability to work very flexible hours and from home pretty much whenever I want.
I could make more money by schlepping into the City of London every day but the thought of getting up at 6am every day to stuff my face into someone's armpit whilst not getting a seat on the train for £4k a year fills me with dread. I rolled out of bed at 8:45am this morning, shower/s
t/shaved, was dressed and online for my first conference call of the day at 9am. All about quality of life, innit?
The thing is these Gurus are no longer needed as much. The industry I work in used to have a few who knew the products inside and out, helped customers spec materials for jobs etc and had been with the companies for years and years.
But then the younger PC savy work force turned up and in the last 10-15 years they have been replaced by Google. Need to know about a material "Google it" need to know how it will react in different environments "Google it". Mechinal properties "Google it". The days of the all knowledgable are numbered. Do people get to know people anymore? Most conversations are now by e-mail and straight to the point, no chit chat, no getting to know the human on the other end. Working from home breeds this as employees don't sit face to face. In the old days you would sit at the Gurus desk ask a question and get a wealth of experiance pased on to you with info on the product, customer and usually a case study to prove your point. Today it's a quick e-mail and a look at the internet.
The management see this and sometimes don't focus on the real benifits a guru will bring.
But then the younger PC savy work force turned up and in the last 10-15 years they have been replaced by Google. Need to know about a material "Google it" need to know how it will react in different environments "Google it". Mechinal properties "Google it". The days of the all knowledgable are numbered. Do people get to know people anymore? Most conversations are now by e-mail and straight to the point, no chit chat, no getting to know the human on the other end. Working from home breeds this as employees don't sit face to face. In the old days you would sit at the Gurus desk ask a question and get a wealth of experiance pased on to you with info on the product, customer and usually a case study to prove your point. Today it's a quick e-mail and a look at the internet.
The management see this and sometimes don't focus on the real benifits a guru will bring.
Benrad said:
Depends on the sector. My graduate engineering job in North East England paid £27k five years ago. We now offer slightly more than that and struggle to find enough good candidates to fill the roles
I think it would be interesting to know how many genuine "graduate" jobs there are compared to the number of graduates coming out of Universities each year. As you say I think it's also very sector dependent and very cyclical. Countdown said:
Benrad said:
Depends on the sector. My graduate engineering job in North East England paid £27k five years ago. We now offer slightly more than that and struggle to find enough good candidates to fill the roles
I think it would be interesting to know how many genuine "graduate" jobs there are compared to the number of graduates coming out of Universities each year. As you say I think it's also very sector dependent and very cyclical. Perhaps young people are choosing engineering and then changing their minds when they realise a computer science degree would have been much easier?
Engineering is something you have to have a passion for, it's a mentality, it seeps into your entire life, which is why I don't put much faith in qualifications, i've met too many fully qualified idiots during my career, sure they can recite complex engineering formulas, but ask them to actually do something and they look like a rabbit caught in headlights, so perhaps many seek out office jobs as a way of earning more for less work, which is what I did for six years, but in the end I just couldn't tolerate it, I lost the will to live.
lyonspride said:
Engineering is something you have to have a passion for, it's a mentality, it seeps into your entire life, which is why I don't put much faith in qualifications, i've met too many fully qualified idiots during my career, sure they can recite complex engineering formulas, but ask them to actually do something and they look like a rabbit caught in headlights, so perhaps many seek out office jobs as a way of earning more for less work, which is what I did for six years, but in the end I just couldn't tolerate it, I lost the will to live.
I think you may be being a little unfair there. 
There are two “types” of engineering, let’s say. One is the practical, dirty hands stuff that makes or maintains things. The other is the design behind those things, done in an office.
I’d argue that practical experience will massively help designs produced in offices, as you’d have a better understanding of how practical it is to construct what’s been designed. However, I wouldn’t want a large infrastructure project (bridge, office block development, etc.) do be designed by someone who “just” has practical experience without a degree to back it up. I want to see the maths that proves it’ll stand up, while not costing more than it needs to.
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