MAT Leave Holiday Pay in Teaching

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Here's an interesting one...

A teacher employed by a large trust in the normal manner in the UK, great holidays etc.

Now, as is usual whilst on maternity leave the teacher will accrue statutory holiday pay however, they won't give either that time or pay to the teacher.

Their reasoning is that should you take a year off, when you come back you'll use that statutory allowance in the next holiday of that year. So...

Holidays run 1st of Sept to 31 Aug. Go on maternity leave for instance April to April and they'll use that leave for your summer holidays (middle of July to August) for instance.

Fair? Legal?

[Steve H]

I can't help on the legal question but are you seriously asking if it's fair that someone should get paid to have a year off and when they come back they get extra time off or pay in lieu for the holidays they "missed" ?

If this is a thing that employees can normally get away with but can't here on the basis that teachers get massively more holiday time than the statutory allowance (if I'm understanding correctly?) then I'm with the trust on this one!

[essayer]

Steve H said:

I can't help on the legal question but are you seriously asking if it's fair that someone should get paid to have a year off and when they come back they get extra time off or pay in lieu for the holidays they "missed"earned ?

Fixed the typo

[LaurasOtherHalf]

essayer said:

Steve H said:

I can't help on the legal question but are you seriously asking if it's fair that someone should get paid to have a year off and when they come back they get extra time off or pay in lieu for the holidays they "missed"earned ?

Fixed the typo

Indeed, you’re talking about a statutory right.

The issue I have with it (and this is only a personal opinion) is that they don’t take into consideration the holidays that are left untaken in the MAT Leave year-due to being on MAT Leave.

Ok, it might just be a stty piece of policy but I’m not convinced it wholly legal?

I’d argue it’s evidence of continued discrimination in the workplace. An employee is at detriment for having a child by losing holidays or pay.

Thoughts? It’s actually baffled ACAS.

[Evanivitch]

I'm pretty sure this is just one of the many examples of employment law/practice where teachers are in a world of their own.

[Welshbeef]

Wife was a teacher and I challenged her about this but apparently it’s all covered in the “burgundy book”

https://www.teachers.org.uk/files/maternity-matter...

Basically no you cannot take accrued holidays on return in addition to the holidays of school holidays nor can you delay your return to work by that accrued leave.

[anonymous-user]

Evanivitch said:

I'm pretty sure this is just one of the many examples of employment law/practice where teachers are in a world of their own.

I suppose the only/best/fair answer is to reduce school holidays to 4-5 wks a year like the majority of the country

Seems like everyone's a winner

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I’d argue it’s evidence of continued discrimination in the workplace. An employee is at detriment for having a child by losing holidays or pay.

In this were 'all sort of transsexual' world heavily promoted at schools and such like, how do 'bloke teachers pull the same year off stunt as it's difficult for them to get pregnant?

[Welshbeef]

Are teachers and teaching assistants employed for only 37 weeks of the year with zero leave/and unable to take anything but extraordinary (compassionate or honeymoon or maternity) leave during term time.

[Evanivitch]

On a contrasting point, flexible maternity leave for teachers is something you can take advantage of.

Effectively the teacher can "return to work" during school holidays, whilst the partner uses the flexible parental leave from their employment. Net result is both parents are at home receiving some parental pay.

Welshbeef said:

Are teachers and teaching assistants employed for only 37 weeks of the year with zero leave/and unable to take anything but extraordinary (compassionate or honeymoon or maternity) leave during term time.

You wouldn't get honeymoon leave, except maybe a day or two.

Even compassionate leave can be difficult depending on the head teacher.

My wife has had to take unpaid leave for things like CPD, research groups and her own graduation ceremony. All of which have been part of wider benefits to her job.

[FunkyGibbon]

Welshbeef said:

Are teachers and teaching assistants employed for only 37 weeks of the year with zero leave/and unable to take anything but extraordinary (compassionate or honeymoon or maternity) leave during term time.

Effectively yes, but it is 39 weeks for teachers (38 actually teaching and 1 week of training (Baker) days. Teaching assistants can by just 38 or 39 depending on contract. Their pay is equated over 12 months. Schools will have their own policy about absence requests during term time.

Some other support staff work term time only (38 weeks) + a number of extra days or weeks as required. e.g. finance staff would work some weeks in summer and a few days at Easter. Again pay equated.

More senior or more operationally required support staff roles can be on a standard 52 week contract which the attracts holiday entitlement, and accruing of leave if on maternity like the rest of us.

[Truckosaurus]

Isn't the usual work around that the teacher returns to work the week before the summer holiday?

[FunkyGibbon]

Truckosaurus said:

Isn't the usual work around that the teacher returns to work the week before the summer holiday?

That is a very common occurrence. Have a September baby and come back to work 2nd/3rd week of July.

[fat80b]

Truckosaurus said:

Isn't the usual work around that the teacher returns to work the week before the summer holiday?

This.

The optimum time to have a baby as a teacher is the first week in September (having done 1 day's work and been paid in full for your summer hols). Then take mat leave off and return to work 1 day before the end of the next school year (just before the next summer holiday) so that you get paid through both sets of holidays and have effectively more than 1 year off on mat leave....

We didn't manage this with our two but the wife did go back to school just before the Easter hols for a week in both cases so she was paid for Easter. A small win in her 17 years (so far) of teaching.

[FunkyGibbon]

fat80b said:

This.

The optimum time to have a baby as a teacher is the first week in September (having done 1 day's work and been paid in full for your summer hols). Then take mat leave off and return to work 1 day before the end of the next school year (just before the next summer holiday) so that you get paid through both sets of holidays and have effectively more than 1 year off on mat leave....

I have had a colleague that did this 3 years in a row. She'd only been in service 2 years before the first.

I say colleague, I barely saw her in 3 years....

[LaurasOtherHalf]

speedyguy said:

In this were 'all sort of transsexual' world heavily promoted at schools and such like, how do 'bloke teachers pull the same year off stunt as it's difficult for them to get pregnant?

I was waiting this post A good point none the less however not the one I’m trying to answer.

Welshbeef, thanks for the link;

burgundy book said:

ACCRUAL OF STATUTORY ANNUAL LEAVE DURING MATERNITY LEAVE

The position is complex but the majority of women teachers returning from maternity leave will not be entitled to annual leave on their return.

Teachers are entitled to 28 days statutory annual leave under the Working Time Regulations and they must be allowed to take this leave outside of their maternity leave. Teachers will accrue their statutory annual leave during their maternity absence. The situation is complex because the Working Time Regulations also state that employers can determine when the statutory leave is taken and teacher employers have advised that the statutory leave should be offset against periods of school closure. The annual leave year as far as teachers are concerned usually runs from 1st September – 31st August. In most cases, therefore, periods of school closure before and after the maternity leave period will more than equal the 28 day annual leave entitlement.

In addition, where the return from annual leave is so close to the end of the leave year that there is not enough time to take the annual leave, a teacher must be allowed to carry this balance forward to the following leave year. The teacher can then be required to take this during the remaining periods of school closure after the 28 days annual leave for that leave year has been accommodated.

Teachers who resign and do not, therefore, return at the end of their maternity leave period may, in some cases, be entitled to additional payment in lieu of their accrued annual leave entitlement. In the case of teachers who resign, any additional payment will help off-set any occupational maternity pay that has to be re-paid following a failure to return to work for 13 weeks.

And to the poster above who states about the best time to have a baby in teaching, this is my point;

Through no fault of the individual, a piece of policy puts a woman who has gone on maternity leave at a disadvantage through situations beyond her control, be that by losing her statutory right or being financially compensated for the loss.

Believe me, I’m not some women’s rights warrior but it strikes me that this situation is wrong.

[DanL]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Through no fault of the individual, a piece of policy puts a woman who has gone on maternity leave at a disadvantage through situations beyond her control, be that by losing her statutory right or being financially compensated for the loss.

Believe me, I’m not some women’s rights warrior but it strikes me that this situation is wrong.

Not having a go - genuinely curious as I don’t know how holidays and pay for teachers work. So, I think from what I’ve read a teacher gets 28 days off as statutory leave, as with the rest of the workforce in the UK. The school can mandate when this leave is taken, and presumably mandates it’s taken during school holidays.

I assume teachers are paid during the school holidays, and that they have 6 weeks off during summer, plus Easter, Christmas and half terms. I don’t know if they are on holiday while school is closed, but naturally I assume they are.

This would give them much more time off than statue states, while being paid, no? This, they’re not missing out?

I’m sure I’ve missed something - probably the assumption above about school holidays is wrong, for example, but I’d like to learn what it is that means teachers don’t already get paid for more than 28 days off...

[Welshbeef]

Evanivitch said:

You wouldn't get honeymoon leave, except maybe a day or two.

Even compassionate leave can be difficult depending on the head teacher.

My wife has had to take unpaid leave for things like CPD, research groups and her own graduation ceremony. All of which have been part of wider benefits to her job.

We had honeymoon leave - all paid 3 weeks worth too it was over a decade ago mind.
Compassionate leave too (attend funeral/S).
Mind you the head was extremely good/fair.

Note at this school she did the same to all / not any favoured staff.
There was one that pushed it.... basically wanted to attend a wedding of a friend (she’d never met but it was a friend of her boyfriend) wedding in Australia... can I have 3 weeks too.. she said yes reluctantly and supposedly it was unpaid. [i don’t like people taking the piss and this was of the highest order].

[LaurasOtherHalf]

DanL said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Through no fault of the individual, a piece of policy puts a woman who has gone on maternity leave at a disadvantage through situations beyond her control, be that by losing her statutory right or being financially compensated for the loss.

Believe me, I’m not some women’s rights warrior but it strikes me that this situation is wrong.

Not having a go - genuinely curious as I don’t know how holidays and pay for teachers work. So, I think from what I’ve read a teacher gets 28 days off as statutory leave, as with the rest of the workforce in the UK. The school can mandate when this leave is taken, and presumably mandates it’s taken during school holidays.

I assume teachers are paid during the school holidays, and that they have 6 weeks off during summer, plus Easter, Christmas and half terms. I don’t know if they are on holiday while school is closed, but naturally I assume they are.

This would give them much more time off than statue states, while being paid, no? This, they’re not missing out?

I’m sure I’ve missed something - probably the assumption above about school holidays is wrong, for example, but I’d like to learn what it is that means teachers don’t already get paid for more than 28 days off...

No you seem to understand it perfectly, or at least as far as I understand it. However;

My point still stands (even if it is a moot point-Someone who goes off on MAT Leave (or PAT Leave perhaps, I haven’t looked into this side) on September the 1st for one year or Someone who goes on MAT Leave for one year and resigns will be financially better off than someone who goes off on MAT Leave at any other point in the year for the same given 12 months

This therefore puts the person at a disadvantage only through becoming pregnant and giving birth at the “wrong” date.

[Evanivitch]

Welshbeef said:

Evanivitch said:

You wouldn't get honeymoon leave, except maybe a day or two.

Even compassionate leave can be difficult depending on the head teacher.

My wife has had to take unpaid leave for things like CPD, research groups and her own graduation ceremony. All of which have been part of wider benefits to her job.

We had honeymoon leave - all paid 3 weeks worth too it was over a decade ago mind.
Compassionate leave too (attend funeral/S).
Mind you the head was extremely good/fair.

Note at this school she did the same to all / not any favoured staff.
There was one that pushed it.... basically wanted to attend a wedding of a friend (she’d never met but it was a friend of her boyfriend) wedding in Australia... can I have 3 weeks too.. she said yes reluctantly and supposedly it was unpaid. [i don’t like people taking the piss and this was of the highest order].

I suppose it all depends on the school precedent, funding and the head teacher.

My mum and aunties are all school workers as well, and more than a few horror stories of head teachers questioning compassionate leave.

As I work in a company that it is quite laid back about booking annual leave let alone emergency leave, it's certainly an eye opener.

[DanL]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

No you seem to understand it perfectly, or at least as far as I understand it. However;

My point still stands (even if it is a moot point-Someone who goes off on MAT Leave (or PAT Leave perhaps, I haven’t looked into this side) on September the 1st for one year or Someone who goes on MAT Leave for one year and resigns will be financially better off than someone who goes off on MAT Leave at any other point in the year for the same given 12 months

This therefore puts the person at a disadvantage only through becoming pregnant and giving birth at the “wrong” date.

Isnt that going to be true for anyone, in any job, depending on what dates their holiday year starts and ends?