Tired of being dead weight - help sought
Discussion
(Long time PH member, using 2nd account for anonymity)
I do not know exactly what I am expecting to achieve from this but I am hopeful that someone might be able to give me some advice or even some empathy if they might identify with parts of my situation.
I will try to colour in the context of me personally/professionally:
- I am a 25 year old male based in Surrey
- I am slightly introverted
- I feel my strengths are that I am articulate, present well, communicate well, am literate in economics/finance
- I've a history of anxiety and depression from the age of 12 and have ever since suffered serious problems with motivation
- I have spent most of my savings on therapy to overcome these problems but for the time being can no longer afford to do so
- In spite of my problems, in my personal life I feel I do okay. I enjoy driving, weight lifting, martial arts, football etc. I have no issues with dating/relationships. The weight of my job problems permeate all areas of my life, though.
- Academic over-achiever until the age of 12, after which I became insular and failed to engage properly in education, scraping by
- Managed to DRAG myself through academia and just about managed a:
- BSc in Management Science and an MSc in Real Estate (I opted for the MSc because I felt I would be unable to cope in full time work, not because it interested me)
- I have been employed in a graduate property consultancy role for 4 years
- The firm is small and my colleagues are 6 senior-level middle-aged men, I can relate to them but only in very narrow ways
I despise coming to work every day. During my first year every single day I would cry on the drive to work and the on the drive back, this is now down to perhaps once a week. In my 4 years working I have barely progressed, all of my peers from my Masters are now qualified surveyors/equivalent, the usual time frame for which is 2 years. This is the only job I have ever applied to and the only job I've ever had. When I first started I was an anxious wreck, I had no confidence to push ahead and do tasks and no confidence nor inclination to ask for help when I couldn't. I especially struggled with making phone calls or anything performative, like talking and contributing in meetings. I have instead fallen into habits of procrastination and avoidance to be able to cope: I use social media, covertly read books and articles and just stare into space fantasising about being anywhere but in the office. On the occasions where I have tried to muster my full effort and complete work in good time and to a good standard, there has been no feeling of fulfilment or satisfaction forthcoming, just a mix of mental exhaustion and emptiness. The idea of surviving the 9 hours in the office to then go home and study fills me with dread at just the thought; 4 years later and chartership feels as distant as it has ever been.
I do not want to be so burdensome and am ashamed of being so, but I simply struggle to force myself to do the work to a minimum level, let alone care about it. I am on a low salary and frustrated by it but I know that I do not even provide value to my employer for the salary I am on, which feeds the circle of frustration/hopelessness more. When people hear the emotional suffering I go through with work they wonder why I don't leave, but I feel there are risks. I am scared of not finding another position, or having to settle for a far inferior firm/role (then suffering all the same problems), scared of failing my probation, and given my tight financial position, scared of falling into homelessness or addiction which is common in my family - my father has been an alcoholic since my birth, multiple other alcoholic family members, aunt an ex heroin addict, brother has started and stopped several jobs, relapsing into near homelessness each time. In spite of me coming from a well-off middle class background, these have become real fears.
In order to change SOMETHING, I have now taken a small but significant step in that I have decided to move to north London with a friend and will be applying to property roles based in central London. I will be handing my notice in in late summer. Clearly I don't love the industry but I cannot think of another one I prefer which is viable, changing comes with the cost of throwing away my 4 years 'experience' and my MSc which are both property specific. I know that even if I were to change, the problem lies with me, not the job, but any positive change is welcome. I have considered just making a random jump to another career but it would likely mean an even lower salary and I might be overwhelmed by having to learn everything from the ground up again.
My ambition has always been to work for myself and I think a high effort/reward correlation would help with motivation but the barriers to viable self-employment feel too high for the time being and I have no idea/direction for it. It is just something I am hopeful for one day.
I know there are many people who are both wiser and have had worse problems than me and made good of themselves professionally. I don't want to make excuses for myself and feel I have more to give than the pitiful attempts I have summoned so far but find it hard extracting it. So if anyone has any advice, anything they feel I should be asking myself or doing, or just plain criticism, I would be very happy and grateful to hear it.
I do not know exactly what I am expecting to achieve from this but I am hopeful that someone might be able to give me some advice or even some empathy if they might identify with parts of my situation.
I will try to colour in the context of me personally/professionally:
- I am a 25 year old male based in Surrey
- I am slightly introverted
- I feel my strengths are that I am articulate, present well, communicate well, am literate in economics/finance
- I've a history of anxiety and depression from the age of 12 and have ever since suffered serious problems with motivation
- I have spent most of my savings on therapy to overcome these problems but for the time being can no longer afford to do so
- In spite of my problems, in my personal life I feel I do okay. I enjoy driving, weight lifting, martial arts, football etc. I have no issues with dating/relationships. The weight of my job problems permeate all areas of my life, though.
- Academic over-achiever until the age of 12, after which I became insular and failed to engage properly in education, scraping by
- Managed to DRAG myself through academia and just about managed a:
- BSc in Management Science and an MSc in Real Estate (I opted for the MSc because I felt I would be unable to cope in full time work, not because it interested me)
- I have been employed in a graduate property consultancy role for 4 years
- The firm is small and my colleagues are 6 senior-level middle-aged men, I can relate to them but only in very narrow ways
I despise coming to work every day. During my first year every single day I would cry on the drive to work and the on the drive back, this is now down to perhaps once a week. In my 4 years working I have barely progressed, all of my peers from my Masters are now qualified surveyors/equivalent, the usual time frame for which is 2 years. This is the only job I have ever applied to and the only job I've ever had. When I first started I was an anxious wreck, I had no confidence to push ahead and do tasks and no confidence nor inclination to ask for help when I couldn't. I especially struggled with making phone calls or anything performative, like talking and contributing in meetings. I have instead fallen into habits of procrastination and avoidance to be able to cope: I use social media, covertly read books and articles and just stare into space fantasising about being anywhere but in the office. On the occasions where I have tried to muster my full effort and complete work in good time and to a good standard, there has been no feeling of fulfilment or satisfaction forthcoming, just a mix of mental exhaustion and emptiness. The idea of surviving the 9 hours in the office to then go home and study fills me with dread at just the thought; 4 years later and chartership feels as distant as it has ever been.
I do not want to be so burdensome and am ashamed of being so, but I simply struggle to force myself to do the work to a minimum level, let alone care about it. I am on a low salary and frustrated by it but I know that I do not even provide value to my employer for the salary I am on, which feeds the circle of frustration/hopelessness more. When people hear the emotional suffering I go through with work they wonder why I don't leave, but I feel there are risks. I am scared of not finding another position, or having to settle for a far inferior firm/role (then suffering all the same problems), scared of failing my probation, and given my tight financial position, scared of falling into homelessness or addiction which is common in my family - my father has been an alcoholic since my birth, multiple other alcoholic family members, aunt an ex heroin addict, brother has started and stopped several jobs, relapsing into near homelessness each time. In spite of me coming from a well-off middle class background, these have become real fears.
In order to change SOMETHING, I have now taken a small but significant step in that I have decided to move to north London with a friend and will be applying to property roles based in central London. I will be handing my notice in in late summer. Clearly I don't love the industry but I cannot think of another one I prefer which is viable, changing comes with the cost of throwing away my 4 years 'experience' and my MSc which are both property specific. I know that even if I were to change, the problem lies with me, not the job, but any positive change is welcome. I have considered just making a random jump to another career but it would likely mean an even lower salary and I might be overwhelmed by having to learn everything from the ground up again.
My ambition has always been to work for myself and I think a high effort/reward correlation would help with motivation but the barriers to viable self-employment feel too high for the time being and I have no idea/direction for it. It is just something I am hopeful for one day.
I know there are many people who are both wiser and have had worse problems than me and made good of themselves professionally. I don't want to make excuses for myself and feel I have more to give than the pitiful attempts I have summoned so far but find it hard extracting it. So if anyone has any advice, anything they feel I should be asking myself or doing, or just plain criticism, I would be very happy and grateful to hear it.
I feel that the root of your issues run deeper than can be resolved here and most likely requires professional intervention. As such, I'll avoid addressing those factors apart from suggesting that any supportive professional is likely to probe into what happened at the age of 12. That's a very specific age to mention (twice) so something's gone on there. This will determine whether there was a hormonal glitch in the system or something external. Identifying this will enable the right diagnosis and treatment and something you might want to consider yourself (no need to answer that here by the way).
Self-employment. Be wary on this as it's not necessarily the answer and could make matters worse. As an employee, your employer has a certain obligation to pastoral care so if you need time off to sort your head, they are obliged to afford that time. When you are self-employed, no such support mechanism exists. You are, quite literally, on your own. Self-employment requires an abundance of self-confidence to the point of near arrogance and sometimes, a certain 'ego'. Assuming these traits will emerge if you take the plunge is exceptionally risky as the chances are, they won't. I would suggest keeping this as a longer term goal, something you do when you get other things sorted. Even if you never actually fly solo, having this as a goal may help the process of address the other issues that prevail.
Rather than leave your sector, look at types of employers. I'm thinking specifically the charity sector where many charities use property as a means of revenue generation or even as the core of the charity's mission; providing homes to the homeless, etc. If not charity then Public Sector. Here, property as you will know, plays a very key role in the functions of government - nationally and locally. Two things to consider here is that a) these sorts of institutions are far more proactive on employee support than any commercial organisation could ever be and b) working for the ultimate benefit of other people (some of which may be affected by the same or similar issues as you) rather than for the share price or Director's coffers, may be the galvanising boost you need; giving you a renewed sense of purpose.
Beyond that, don't use your academic achievements as a chain, keeping you tethered to the sector. Gaining an MSc is no small feat and at that level, it's as much about the process of research and learning as it is about the subject itself and something valuable to many endeavours. If you do leave the sector, your efforts on this will certainly not be wasted.
Other ideas...
Well, you seem OK with relationships. So, keep an eye on something with some potential of permanence. Coming home at the end of the day to the other half has significant benefits beyond the obvious. If that leads to marriage and kids, better still as this can make the 8 hours prior to coming home more purposeful and bearable.
Hobbies? Got any? If not, get stuck into something that doesn't matter to anyone other than you. Doesn't matter what it is and nothing to stop you trying them all - line dancing, photography, painting, am-dram.... Don't dabble either. Subscribe to the magazine, join the societies and fill your head with stuff that you look forward to to balance the stuff you don't.
Hope that's of some use. You don't strike me as someone at the end of their tether and you articulate yourself well plus you recognise the issues. Many don't or deny themselves the beedin' obvious. Self awareness is everything and you seem to have this.
I wish you well.
Self-employment. Be wary on this as it's not necessarily the answer and could make matters worse. As an employee, your employer has a certain obligation to pastoral care so if you need time off to sort your head, they are obliged to afford that time. When you are self-employed, no such support mechanism exists. You are, quite literally, on your own. Self-employment requires an abundance of self-confidence to the point of near arrogance and sometimes, a certain 'ego'. Assuming these traits will emerge if you take the plunge is exceptionally risky as the chances are, they won't. I would suggest keeping this as a longer term goal, something you do when you get other things sorted. Even if you never actually fly solo, having this as a goal may help the process of address the other issues that prevail.
Rather than leave your sector, look at types of employers. I'm thinking specifically the charity sector where many charities use property as a means of revenue generation or even as the core of the charity's mission; providing homes to the homeless, etc. If not charity then Public Sector. Here, property as you will know, plays a very key role in the functions of government - nationally and locally. Two things to consider here is that a) these sorts of institutions are far more proactive on employee support than any commercial organisation could ever be and b) working for the ultimate benefit of other people (some of which may be affected by the same or similar issues as you) rather than for the share price or Director's coffers, may be the galvanising boost you need; giving you a renewed sense of purpose.
Beyond that, don't use your academic achievements as a chain, keeping you tethered to the sector. Gaining an MSc is no small feat and at that level, it's as much about the process of research and learning as it is about the subject itself and something valuable to many endeavours. If you do leave the sector, your efforts on this will certainly not be wasted.
Other ideas...
Well, you seem OK with relationships. So, keep an eye on something with some potential of permanence. Coming home at the end of the day to the other half has significant benefits beyond the obvious. If that leads to marriage and kids, better still as this can make the 8 hours prior to coming home more purposeful and bearable.
Hobbies? Got any? If not, get stuck into something that doesn't matter to anyone other than you. Doesn't matter what it is and nothing to stop you trying them all - line dancing, photography, painting, am-dram.... Don't dabble either. Subscribe to the magazine, join the societies and fill your head with stuff that you look forward to to balance the stuff you don't.
Hope that's of some use. You don't strike me as someone at the end of their tether and you articulate yourself well plus you recognise the issues. Many don't or deny themselves the beedin' obvious. Self awareness is everything and you seem to have this.
I wish you well.
Nothing really to add except good luck, maybe look at roles that you would enjoy/give you satisfaction.
One thing I would add is I purchased a book called the motivation myth by Jeff Haden, gives very good ideas on motivating yourself
the other book I would recommend for helping with the psychological is the chimp paradox by Prof Steve Peters, excellent book about neuroscience and an easy read but also gives you exercises to help with your mental brain
One thing I would add is I purchased a book called the motivation myth by Jeff Haden, gives very good ideas on motivating yourself
the other book I would recommend for helping with the psychological is the chimp paradox by Prof Steve Peters, excellent book about neuroscience and an easy read but also gives you exercises to help with your mental brain
Perhaps this is too tough but why worry about things you can't change as you can't change them and if you are worried about things you can change then change them eg don't like the job then move on to another.
As an example I used to work for an absolute mother f
ker of a boss. I put up with it for 18 months or so but knew I had to get out. Looked for another job and moved on. Not a 2nd thought about it since then.
TX.
As an example I used to work for an absolute mother f
ker of a boss. I put up with it for 18 months or so but knew I had to get out. Looked for another job and moved on. Not a 2nd thought about it since then.TX.
focus on the future not the past, looking too much at the past can end up becoming self fulfilling.
Before you do any major changes, i would do two things. Speak with gp and request counselling, depression,mental health treatment and tell you manager how you feel, depressed.
It's a recognised workplace disability and they should look t way to adapt. eg do you need to come to office daily can you work from home etc. Also preps for time off for counselling cbt if you don't address these issues they will never go away.
Before you do any major changes, i would do two things. Speak with gp and request counselling, depression,mental health treatment and tell you manager how you feel, depressed.
It's a recognised workplace disability and they should look t way to adapt. eg do you need to come to office daily can you work from home etc. Also preps for time off for counselling cbt if you don't address these issues they will never go away.
It sounds like you are alone at work for long periods if you are able to spend so much time procrastinating. If I'm on my own I will struggle to concentrate on my work, but if I'm with other people who are working (even if I'm not interacting with them) I have no problems cracking on without hesitation and don't even think about anything else.
It's strange, but I can happily spend long periods alone in my own time, but I absolutely hate working alone.
I'm sure if you could join a young and lively team it would make all the difference. At 25, you don't want to work with a team of know-it-all 45 year olds. You might find your confidence increases and you would have more to contribute if you worked with people of similar or less experience than yourself.
You also might find you actually enjoy spending time with your colleagues. For instance, on Tuesday morning I went to work not thinking about the work I'd have to do that day, I was looking forward to the Game of Thrones chat I'd be having when I got in. If you can talk to a group of people about a TV show or footie, whatever, then you will build confidence to talk to the same people about work matters.
Try to arrange a trip to the pub after work or get a lunch out with a few colleagues. Doesn't need to be anything fancy, just two or three of you going out for a sandwich in Subway would help. If you can think of going to work as almost like a social occasion then it won't fill you with dread so much.
It's strange, but I can happily spend long periods alone in my own time, but I absolutely hate working alone.
I'm sure if you could join a young and lively team it would make all the difference. At 25, you don't want to work with a team of know-it-all 45 year olds. You might find your confidence increases and you would have more to contribute if you worked with people of similar or less experience than yourself.
You also might find you actually enjoy spending time with your colleagues. For instance, on Tuesday morning I went to work not thinking about the work I'd have to do that day, I was looking forward to the Game of Thrones chat I'd be having when I got in. If you can talk to a group of people about a TV show or footie, whatever, then you will build confidence to talk to the same people about work matters.
Try to arrange a trip to the pub after work or get a lunch out with a few colleagues. Doesn't need to be anything fancy, just two or three of you going out for a sandwich in Subway would help. If you can think of going to work as almost like a social occasion then it won't fill you with dread so much.
Edited by AlexC1981 on Wednesday 15th May 21:15
Thank you for some very helpful and encouraging replies!
A couple of points in response:
Re my mental health and addressing it professionally - I have. I am medicated for it, have had plenty of therapy over the last 4 years and will continue to do more once I can afford it (NHS services are beyond a joke). My employer is also aware, just not to the extent I have shared here. There was no single event that triggered it at age 12, that's just when I became most aware of certain patterns of feelings and thoughts I was experiencing, the problems are all grounded earlier than that but were reinforced from a very young age through to my late teens (I was parented in a way that actively stopped intrinsic motivation developing). Therapy gives me an understanding of why I am the way I am and gives me some tools to cope, it does not fix the problem in isolation, I feel that has to come from how I relate to and position myself in the external world.
StevieBee - the charity sector suggestion is very interesting and not something I had thought of, this is the kind of new angle on things I was looking for. The self-employment I will leave be for now.
My hobbies are predominantly weightlifting, football and driving and I take them all seriously and certainly don't dabble - I am in clubs for all of them and spend a lot of my time thinking about them and how to be better at them.
Alexc1981 - It's uncommon that I would be at work alone. I get on with all of my colleagues and have plenty of conversations, joking around, talking about current affairs, sport, etc. Whilst it's all pleasant, I have to play to their tune socially as they are relatively conservative and I am not. Extended periods socialising with them have been hard work (they even struggle with it among themselves) and I agree that being around younger people would make a big difference, both socially and by giving me a sense of belonging.
A205 GTI - I am going to buy the Motivation Myth book and see what I think.
A couple of points in response:
Re my mental health and addressing it professionally - I have. I am medicated for it, have had plenty of therapy over the last 4 years and will continue to do more once I can afford it (NHS services are beyond a joke). My employer is also aware, just not to the extent I have shared here. There was no single event that triggered it at age 12, that's just when I became most aware of certain patterns of feelings and thoughts I was experiencing, the problems are all grounded earlier than that but were reinforced from a very young age through to my late teens (I was parented in a way that actively stopped intrinsic motivation developing). Therapy gives me an understanding of why I am the way I am and gives me some tools to cope, it does not fix the problem in isolation, I feel that has to come from how I relate to and position myself in the external world.
StevieBee - the charity sector suggestion is very interesting and not something I had thought of, this is the kind of new angle on things I was looking for. The self-employment I will leave be for now.
My hobbies are predominantly weightlifting, football and driving and I take them all seriously and certainly don't dabble - I am in clubs for all of them and spend a lot of my time thinking about them and how to be better at them.
Alexc1981 - It's uncommon that I would be at work alone. I get on with all of my colleagues and have plenty of conversations, joking around, talking about current affairs, sport, etc. Whilst it's all pleasant, I have to play to their tune socially as they are relatively conservative and I am not. Extended periods socialising with them have been hard work (they even struggle with it among themselves) and I agree that being around younger people would make a big difference, both socially and by giving me a sense of belonging.
A205 GTI - I am going to buy the Motivation Myth book and see what I think.
I haven't been tested for autism. I do exhibit some minor autistic traits at times but having done a lot of reading on it and knowing a couple of autistic family friends (and being exposed to their diagnosis process) I really doubt I have it to any meaningful degree. My brother and father both have ADHD but again, I don't exhibit anything like the traits required to be diagnosed.
Having spent a lot of time talking with various medical and psychiatric professionals in great detail about my experiences, I would have hoped they'd have picked up on something like that. A worthwhile thought, though.
Having spent a lot of time talking with various medical and psychiatric professionals in great detail about my experiences, I would have hoped they'd have picked up on something like that. A worthwhile thought, though.
Based on what you have relayed, I suspect you have already taken the next step by relocating to London with your mate and seeking a new job.
Once these pieces come together, things might start improving. Just focus a bit more into what sector you can further develop your career.
Good luck.
Once these pieces come together, things might start improving. Just focus a bit more into what sector you can further develop your career.
Good luck.
OP - Please, please, pleeeeeeease go on Amazon and buy this book then read it. It'll be the best 40p you'll ever spend.
Since I read the book I've achieved more in whatever job/company I was in... and I've also been paid more money year on year since reading the book (whilst I totally appreciate that money isn't the be all and end all, it's just a result of those things happening).
I also climbed Ben Nevis and did the Coast to Coast cycle in the following 12 months since reading it. Then left my job for a better job.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Taming-Tigers-things-neve...
Since I read the book I've achieved more in whatever job/company I was in... and I've also been paid more money year on year since reading the book (whilst I totally appreciate that money isn't the be all and end all, it's just a result of those things happening).
I also climbed Ben Nevis and did the Coast to Coast cycle in the following 12 months since reading it. Then left my job for a better job.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Taming-Tigers-things-neve...
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