Wanting to be an Architect?
Discussion
My youngest (who is currently in Year 12 / Lower 6th) previously wanted to do Civil Engineering. She now has her mind set on becoming an Architect
1. She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference? She's also applying to UCL, Manchester Uni, and Edinburgh. Are there any other Universities with a decent reputation for Architecture.
2. She's not doing Art at A-level. is this going to be a big issue?
2. Would an Apprenticeship be better than going to Uni? Having already forked out shedloads for her older siblings I'd prefer to avoid another 3/4 years of tution fees if i could.
Thanks for all advice.
Countdown said:
She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference?
Yes - was recently filtering CV's with my boss for a role just above graduate level, any candidate that wasn't from from a non-Oxbridge (or top of the Russell group - LSE/Warwick/Bristol/Bath etc) uni was unilaterally canned (despite my own protestations.kiethton said:
Countdown said:
She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference?
Yes - was recently filtering CV's with my boss for a role just above graduate level, any candidate that wasn't from from a non-Oxbridge (or top of the Russell group - LSE/Warwick/Bristol/Bath etc) uni was unilaterally canned (despite my own protestations.The reason I ask is that when my son when to Uni he made a massive thing about only attending a Russell Group Uni, despite me telling him that the class of degree he ended up with was far more important than the Uni he attended for the majority of Employers. His view was that people like Google/FB/Amazon etc pick their IT Grads mainly from a narrow band of 5 universities and that anybody outside these would struggle.
Countdown said:
kiethton said:
Countdown said:
She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference?
Yes - was recently filtering CV's with my boss for a role just above graduate level, any candidate that wasn't from from a non-Oxbridge (or top of the Russell group - LSE/Warwick/Bristol/Bath etc) uni was unilaterally canned (despite my own protestations.The reason I ask is that when my son when to Uni he made a massive thing about only attending a Russell Group Uni, despite me telling him that the class of degree he ended up with was far more important than the Uni he attended for the majority of Employers. His view was that people like Google/FB/Amazon etc pick their IT Grads mainly from a narrow band of 5 universities and that anybody outside these would struggle.
He was applying some of the graduate screening criteria, namely we have 50-100 applicants for each place on the scheme so can be very selective, my boss is perhaps a little OTT about it.
My thoughts are that university and its reputation really does matter, but you still need to get atleast a 2:1. For some sectors/industries other Uni's come to the fore (for me Reading) given it's property focus, so if Bath is #1 for architects it will be similar. Never underestimate the bias of recruiters/managers trying to find others that have come from where they did....I got my first city break as my Director's son went to the same (fee paying) school as I did.
When you're inundated with applicants you can afford to only pick the best.
kiethton said:
I work for a mid-size but now global investment bank but with a Real Estate/property focus.
He was applying some of the graduate screening criteria, namely we have 50-100 applicants for each place on the scheme so can be very selective, my boss is perhaps a little OTT about it.
My thoughts are that university and its reputation really does matter, but you still need to get atleast a 2:1. For some sectors/industries other Uni's come to the fore (for me Reading) given it's property focus, so if Bath is #1 for architects it will be similar. Never underestimate the bias of recruiters/managers trying to find others that have come from where they did....I got my first city break as my Director's son went to the same (fee paying) school as I did.
When you're inundated with applicants you can afford to only pick the best.
Thanks - that pretty much echoes what my son told me.He was applying some of the graduate screening criteria, namely we have 50-100 applicants for each place on the scheme so can be very selective, my boss is perhaps a little OTT about it.
My thoughts are that university and its reputation really does matter, but you still need to get atleast a 2:1. For some sectors/industries other Uni's come to the fore (for me Reading) given it's property focus, so if Bath is #1 for architects it will be similar. Never underestimate the bias of recruiters/managers trying to find others that have come from where they did....I got my first city break as my Director's son went to the same (fee paying) school as I did.
When you're inundated with applicants you can afford to only pick the best.
Been through this 3/4 years back with my daughter. She was coming from an art background having dropped A-level maths after a year.
There was a big difference between a BA and a BSc Arc. Essentially if you were looking at a BSc they didn't care about art and wanted A level maths and physics. For my daughter that knocked out several places.
She ended up with a couple of offers based on her portfolio but liked the approach at AUB and has done quite nicely out of it. She recently applied for a job with Wilmott Dixon and got down to the second choice out of 1800+ applicants and has since been offered a few options by them all at 25k+car a year as a graduate so not bad.
However... as far as saving uni fees... its 7 years study unless an employer funds it.
There was a big difference between a BA and a BSc Arc. Essentially if you were looking at a BSc they didn't care about art and wanted A level maths and physics. For my daughter that knocked out several places.
She ended up with a couple of offers based on her portfolio but liked the approach at AUB and has done quite nicely out of it. She recently applied for a job with Wilmott Dixon and got down to the second choice out of 1800+ applicants and has since been offered a few options by them all at 25k+car a year as a graduate so not bad.
However... as far as saving uni fees... its 7 years study unless an employer funds it.
Countdown said:
My youngest (who is currently in Year 12 / Lower 6th) previously wanted to do Civil Engineering. She now has her mind set on becoming an Architect
1. She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference? She's also applying to UCL, Manchester Uni, and Edinburgh. Are there any other Universities with a decent reputation for Architecture.
2. She's not doing Art at A-level. is this going to be a big issue?
2. Would an Apprenticeship be better than going to Uni? Having already forked out shedloads for her older siblings I'd prefer to avoid another 3/4 years of tution fees if i could.
Thanks for all advice.
I did all three Parts of the Architecture course at Bath. When I started it was about 3rd in the league tables, is currently trading places for the top spot last time I checked. 1. She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference? She's also applying to UCL, Manchester Uni, and Edinburgh. Are there any other Universities with a decent reputation for Architecture.
2. She's not doing Art at A-level. is this going to be a big issue?
2. Would an Apprenticeship be better than going to Uni? Having already forked out shedloads for her older siblings I'd prefer to avoid another 3/4 years of tution fees if i could.
Thanks for all advice.
It is an excellent course, in all honesty, in my (humble) opinion our Part 1 undergraduate work was similar in quality and sophistication to some universities Part 2/masters output. ( I think this is then reflected in employability rates, if not salaries..)
There is a lot of pressure to perform well, and the work was long and stressful, as it is in most Architectural departments I'm sure. Ironically nearly all of this pressure was self-generated by the students, the ambition and talent in each year drive the pace, and I found it difficult and draining to keep up, and my mental health was certainly challenged at times, and support and awareness in the department was poor. This may have changed over time.. All that said, I still loved it, and it was a fantastic environment and experience.
I didn't do Art A-Level and really am not particularly artistic at all. Basic representation and understanding of 3D space and spatial awareness is more important in my view. Bath is unusual that it doesn't (at least when I was there) interview, require a portfolio submission, or as mentioned A -Level art.
The downside is the grade requirements are very high, and there is little scope for negotiation should you miss the grades. (at the open day someone asked what they should do if they missed the grades, by one A for example- the answer back was "don't bother calling us!". I think the requirements are now something like A*AA.
The lack of art didn't particularly hold me back, as there is a good 'foundation' in drawing techniques to get everyone up to an acceptable standard. It's more important that you are confident expressing yourself and ideas with a pencil (even if the drawing is crap), as long as people can understand it!
Maths, and structures was more important (and difficult for me) in first year, as you do combined modules with the Structural Engineers to understand the basics of understanding of structural principles, basic calculations, moment diagrams etc.
Working with engineers is a useful foundation, as much of what Architects do is coordinate a design team, and try and get the best out of different disciplines, with diverging or conflicting priorities, so getting some practice early at uni is very useful, and I think has helped in my early career, and separated me from the 'pack' when applying for jobs. Similarly, the sandwich placements in 2nd and 3rd year were a great way to get out into paid employment and experience the practicalities of practice, rather than sticking purely in the academic world for three years.
That all said, if I had my time again, I would strongly, and seriously consider doing an Architectural Apprenticeship had it been available when I started. I resent my student loan and the time it took to get qualified, and I was "only" on the three grand a year fees...!
It may take longer, but at least you'd be earning throughout, and get a good basis in the reality of practice.. Bath is a 4 year undergrad degree (sandwich placement of 2x 6 months) followed by a 2-year masters degree, and then a £1850 part-time mostly distance learning PG certificate delivered over 9 months. So brace yourself.. it won't be cheap, and will take 7 years as a minimum (I did it in 12, as went out and worked more during..)
https://www.architecture.com/campaign/apprenticesh...
Happy to answer more questions over PM/email if you have them
@Craig - thanks for that response - extremely helpful 
You've answered a lot of the queries/concerns I had, some of which I hadn't posted above. The one about self-imposed pressure is very relevant - she's always been highly competitive and she's at a good school. However this does have it's downsides in that she stresses ridiculous amounts about exams and not getting top grades. Me and her mum spend more time telling her to slow down and take things easy rather than the umpteen hours she spends doing homework and revising. t sounds like bath would be 3/4 years of the same 
Im going to try and steer her towards an apprenticeship. the problem is her older siblings had such a good time she thinks she'd be missing out if she didn't go.
You've answered a lot of the queries/concerns I had, some of which I hadn't posted above
. The one about self-imposed pressure is very relevant - she's always been highly competitive and she's at a good school. However this does have it's downsides in that she stresses ridiculous amounts about exams and not getting top grades. Me and her mum spend more time telling her to slow down and take things easy rather than the umpteen hours she spends doing homework and revising. t sounds like bath would be 3/4 years of the same Im going to try and steer her towards an apprenticeship. the problem is her older siblings had such a good time she thinks she'd be missing out if she didn't go.
21TonyK said:
Been through this 3/4 years back with my daughter. She was coming from an art background having dropped A-level maths after a year.
There was a big difference between a BA and a BSc Arc. Essentially if you were looking at a BSc they didn't care about art and wanted A level maths and physics. For my daughter that knocked out several places.
She ended up with a couple of offers based on her portfolio but liked the approach at AUB and has done quite nicely out of it. She recently applied for a job with Wilmott Dixon and got down to the second choice out of 1800+ applicants and has since been offered a few options by them all at 25k+car a year as a graduate so not bad.
However... as far as saving uni fees... its 7 years study unless an employer funds it.
Thanks Tony - where's AUB?There was a big difference between a BA and a BSc Arc. Essentially if you were looking at a BSc they didn't care about art and wanted A level maths and physics. For my daughter that knocked out several places.
She ended up with a couple of offers based on her portfolio but liked the approach at AUB and has done quite nicely out of it. She recently applied for a job with Wilmott Dixon and got down to the second choice out of 1800+ applicants and has since been offered a few options by them all at 25k+car a year as a graduate so not bad.
However... as far as saving uni fees... its 7 years study unless an employer funds it.
She's doing Maths & Physics so will probably go down the BSc route.
No problem
I wouldn't worry *too* much about the whole BSc BA thing. To a certain extent, this is a relic falling back to how that specific university was founded, and what faculty the course is run from ( For example you can get a Bachelor of Arts in Maths from Cambridge..!)
Particularly with Architecture, the ARB/RIBA set the curriculum required to meet the minimum requirements in order to 'be exempt' from the Part 1 and Part 2 in turn. So the courses have a lot of similarity in overall content. Obviously they choose to deliver it in different ways with differing successes/quality, but just because the course is a BSc does not mean art/ design/ aesthetics will be ignored and you will be doing calculations and maths all the time!
AUB is Arts University Bournemouth ( I also spent a year and a half down in Poole just along the coast working recently) and had a bit of contact with the uni, went to a few events and end of year shows.
Still a relatively new course, but has ambition and is moving in the right direction. The Part 2 course is very new, and the numbers of students are very low. Certainly less practical/technically founded than what I did in Bath, and as I mentioned, seemed to lack the 'critical mass/drive' from the students, where at bath even the "average" students were pulled along by the momentum of the year, but they do some interesting collaborative projects and are clearly investing alot in facilities and the campus; for example they had loads more 3D printers, workshop facilities and laser cutters than we had in Bath.
I wouldn't worry *too* much about the whole BSc BA thing. To a certain extent, this is a relic falling back to how that specific university was founded, and what faculty the course is run from ( For example you can get a Bachelor of Arts in Maths from Cambridge..!)
Particularly with Architecture, the ARB/RIBA set the curriculum required to meet the minimum requirements in order to 'be exempt' from the Part 1 and Part 2 in turn. So the courses have a lot of similarity in overall content. Obviously they choose to deliver it in different ways with differing successes/quality, but just because the course is a BSc does not mean art/ design/ aesthetics will be ignored and you will be doing calculations and maths all the time!
AUB is Arts University Bournemouth ( I also spent a year and a half down in Poole just along the coast working recently) and had a bit of contact with the uni, went to a few events and end of year shows.
Still a relatively new course, but has ambition and is moving in the right direction. The Part 2 course is very new, and the numbers of students are very low. Certainly less practical/technically founded than what I did in Bath, and as I mentioned, seemed to lack the 'critical mass/drive' from the students, where at bath even the "average" students were pulled along by the momentum of the year, but they do some interesting collaborative projects and are clearly investing alot in facilities and the campus; for example they had loads more 3D printers, workshop facilities and laser cutters than we had in Bath.
Edited by cRaigAl205 on Thursday 16th May 19:17
Edited by cRaigAl205 on Thursday 16th May 19:20
Countdown said:
@Craig - thanks for that response - extremely helpful
You've answered a lot of the queries/concerns I had, some of which I hadn't posted above. The one about self-imposed pressure is very relevant - she's always been highly competitive and she's at a good school. However this does have it's downsides in that she stresses ridiculous amounts about exams and not getting top grades. Me and her mum spend more time telling her to slow down and take things easy rather than the umpteen hours she spends doing homework and revising. t sounds like bath would be 3/4 years of the same
Im going to try and steer her towards an apprenticeship. the problem is her older siblings had such a good time she thinks she'd be missing out if she didn't go.
Sounds very much like my daughter. She self taught business studies at GCSE and just took the exam... got an A. Lied to her teachers in front of us when she was told to find an interest outside of studying... told them she played tennis and just winked at me!You've answered a lot of the queries/concerns I had, some of which I hadn't posted above
. The one about self-imposed pressure is very relevant - she's always been highly competitive and she's at a good school. However this does have it's downsides in that she stresses ridiculous amounts about exams and not getting top grades. Me and her mum spend more time telling her to slow down and take things easy rather than the umpteen hours she spends doing homework and revising. t sounds like bath would be 3/4 years of the same Im going to try and steer her towards an apprenticeship. the problem is her older siblings had such a good time she thinks she'd be missing out if she didn't go.
The self imposed pressure can be immense. If my daughter does not get the highest % of her group she has failed in her eyes. She was home last week and if she had more than 5-6 hours sleep a night it was a short day for her. At Uni she has been doing 3-4 hours, hence why we pulled her home for the last two weeks.
Giving my daughter basic time and project management skills was absolutely key to her getting though Uni. Managing the workload is the challenge. Out of 50 plus in year 1 I think they are down to about 20 students and only today (1 weeks until the end) another dropped out.
AUB - Arts Uni. Bournemouth.
Craig makes some good points. Talking to Cardiff Uni. they said all they wanted was AAA, maths, physics +1 and a pencil.
The first year work at Cardiff looked like MA at some others. Reading offered my daughter a "fee free degree"... turned out not to be RIBA accredited.
Another consideration is ease of access from home. Problem with Arc. is very little at A level translates so its a very steep learning curve and she WILL want/need to come home a lot for moral support. Facetime is not an answer.
The first year work at Cardiff looked like MA at some others. Reading offered my daughter a "fee free degree"... turned out not to be RIBA accredited.
Another consideration is ease of access from home. Problem with Arc. is very little at A level translates so its a very steep learning curve and she WILL want/need to come home a lot for moral support. Facetime is not an answer.
21TonyK said:
Craig makes some good points. Talking to Cardiff Uni. they said all they wanted was AAA, maths, physics +1 and a pencil.
The first year work at Cardiff looked like MA at some others. Reading offered my daughter a "fee free degree"... turned out not to be RIBA accredited.
Another consideration is ease of access from home. Problem with Arc. is very little at A level translates so its a very steep learning curve and she WILL want/need to come home a lot for moral support. Facetime is not an answer.
All good points. Part of the reason it took me so long is I actually ended up taking a year out in 2nd year (not quite a breakdown, but the stress was too much). The first year work at Cardiff looked like MA at some others. Reading offered my daughter a "fee free degree"... turned out not to be RIBA accredited.
Another consideration is ease of access from home. Problem with Arc. is very little at A level translates so its a very steep learning curve and she WILL want/need to come home a lot for moral support. Facetime is not an answer.
It's a full-on course. Partly due to the tutoring methods (you can't really be "taught" architecture, honestly most of it just having a go and seeing how good the results are.. It can be stressful when it goes wrong and you have to do it again usually right before a deadline.) It's also a completely open-ended course. You can't "solve" the problem and move on, it's always tempting to tinker and "perfect" your design.
Plus an attitude from the tutors that "we worked long hours/pulled all-nighters in our time", so therefore encourage it again. This is then compounded by the self-imposed pressure that the students seem to bring on themselves.
It can take a long time to get the work-life balance right studying architecture. The galling thing at Bath was the naturally, effortlessly talented students who could have phoned it in and got a first were still working all hours sent, which made it even more difficult for us average students to keep up!
As a side point get your daughter to use her school email to get an academic copy of Autodesk Fusion 360/Sketchup Pro and start looking at Revit and Adobe suite now.
Despite the Arts bias my daughter had to self teach CAD and its still a nightmare and she has lost at least 10% of her time fighting software because she is self taught and "doesn't have the f*cking time" for Dad to show her a few things.
Oh... and budget a nice macbook pro.
Despite the Arts bias my daughter had to self teach CAD and its still a nightmare and she has lost at least 10% of her time fighting software because she is self taught and "doesn't have the f*cking time" for Dad to show her a few things.
Oh... and budget a nice macbook pro.
Edited by 21TonyK on Thursday 16th May 20:29
21TonyK said:
Sounds very much like my daughter. She self taught business studies at GCSE and just took the exam... got an A. Lied to her teachers in front of us when she was told to find an interest outside of studying... told them she played tennis and just winked at me!
The self imposed pressure can be immense. If my daughter does not get the highest % of her group she has failed in her eyes. She was home last week and if she had more than 5-6 hours sleep a night it was a short day for her. At Uni she has been doing 3-4 hours, hence why we pulled her home for the last two weeks.
Giving my daughter basic time and project management skills was absolutely key to her getting though Uni. Managing the workload is the challenge. Out of 50 plus in year 1 I think they are down to about 20 students and only today (1 weeks until the end) another dropped out.
AUB - Arts Uni. Bournemouth.
Cheers Tony - to be honest I'm beginning to wish i hadn't asked! It's making Medicine look like the easy option The self imposed pressure can be immense. If my daughter does not get the highest % of her group she has failed in her eyes. She was home last week and if she had more than 5-6 hours sleep a night it was a short day for her. At Uni she has been doing 3-4 hours, hence why we pulled her home for the last two weeks.
Giving my daughter basic time and project management skills was absolutely key to her getting though Uni. Managing the workload is the challenge. Out of 50 plus in year 1 I think they are down to about 20 students and only today (1 weeks until the end) another dropped out.
AUB - Arts Uni. Bournemouth.
Countdown said:
My youngest (who is currently in Year 12 / Lower 6th) previously wanted to do Civil Engineering. She now has her mind set on becoming an Architect
1. She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference? She's also applying to UCL, Manchester Uni, and Edinburgh. Are there any other Universities with a decent reputation for Architecture.
2. She's not doing Art at A-level. is this going to be a big issue?
2. Would an Apprenticeship be better than going to Uni? Having already forked out shedloads for her older siblings I'd prefer to avoid another 3/4 years of tution fees if i could.
Thanks for all advice.
1. Bath is good generally, I met an Architect who studied there and they loved it but that was quite a while ago. UCL, the Bartlett, is regarded as the best Architecture School, a former colleague just did her Part 1 there but thought they were a bunch of pretentious t1. She wants to go to Bath Uni (as supposedly this is the "best"). Does the University you attend really make much difference? She's also applying to UCL, Manchester Uni, and Edinburgh. Are there any other Universities with a decent reputation for Architecture.
2. She's not doing Art at A-level. is this going to be a big issue?
2. Would an Apprenticeship be better than going to Uni? Having already forked out shedloads for her older siblings I'd prefer to avoid another 3/4 years of tution fees if i could.
Thanks for all advice.
ts. In one of her first lectures the lecturer walked on and announced ‘Architecture is st’. If you can put up with that and play the game then you’re fine. Get a first from the Bartlett and you can take your pick of jobs when you leave.2. No issue at all. They love the arty ones and you don’t even need a basic grasp of Newtonian mechanics to study Architecture. I came from a science/engineering background and found the engineering lectures absolutely laughable. I work with senior architects who still don’t know how a truss works, but they can do lovely sketches. Felt-tip fairies we call them. If your daughter is a good artist she has the strongest chance of doing well in Architecture school. It’s not like the real world!
3. I’m doing my Part 2 Diploma now directly with the RIBA, it’s hosted by Oxford Brookes and is entirely self taught. You have to be working full time to gain your Part 1 or 2 this way. I wouldn’t recommend it if you’re young, better just to get it done and pay off the loans later. I’m in a WhatsApp group with the part 1s and 2s and the younger ones don’t seem very happy about the course. Also, I wish I hadn’t taken a 14 year gap between my Part 1 and 2, I only intended to take a few years but life (and having two kids) gets in the way of studying!
I wish you both lots of luck. It’s a pain in the arse at times (in, and 2 years either side of a recession, for instance) but can be hugely rewarding when you’re walking through a building that you designed (once it’s been de-snagged of course).
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